Is Marine Pure effective at reducing nitrates? We learn some valuable lessons. | BRStv Investigates

[Roggio]

Got the Triton results back today. Again all of these tanks were fed close to identical amounts food, no other inputs and zero water changes over a couple month period of time. Pretty much confirms the results others have had. All of the marine pure tanks were significantly higher than the control.

Control with no marine pure 1.64 ug/l
Large marine pure block 51.00 ug/l
Marine pure plate 174 ug/l
Marine pure sphears 32.00 ug/l

I think we are in the same place. While there are some ideas it's not entirely clear why seemingly only a fraction of people have had issues. Could be a simple as the attention to rinsing. Could also be anecdotal and the aluminum isn't actually in a toxic or an available form in the tank. Could be just soft corals are impacted. Lots of different things. I think thought leaders like Randy Holmes-Farley have certainly demonstrated the potential toxicity of aluminum.

So I think the real question is why use marine pure at all? The primary reason was to add high-density filtration the tank but there are other ways to achieve that goal so I am not sure that is good enough considering the unknowns related to aluminum. The other reason is reefers claim rapid results lowering nitrates by simply adding this media to the tank. If it is really that easy I think that's pretty compelling. I have always had my doubts about the media's ability to do that and in this experiment, it certainly didn't seem to achieve that goal. We are working on a revision to that experiment in a bit more realistic envisionment. Hopefully in a few months we will be able to shed additional light on that. We are also curing multiple MP blocks prior so I think we will get a window into if this is an ongoing issue or an initial issue, potentially related to rinsing the duty fines from transport.

I want to commend you Ryan for releasing the information as soon as you got it. I have a feeling a lot of other companies would have put out something like "Next time on BRS TV ... Find out the Results ..."

I decided to test Seachems Matrix. It has been used successfully for years. While it's not a BRS caliber test I would love any input you guys have or what you feel I could do differently.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/putting-pond-matrix-to-the-test-now-that-marinepure-is-out.310313/

 

[siggy]

Ok that said , What does the results mean ? Ditch the marine-pur, is the amount toxic, and were does it come from, the cast plates during firing is my guess.
Ceramic is a fired clay if i am correct, im sitting on 2.5 gallons of spheres, and rely heavily for denitrification

 

[bif24701]

Got the Triton results back today. Again all of these tanks were fed close to identical amounts food, no other inputs and zero water changes over a couple month period of time. Pretty much confirms the results others have had. All of the marine pure tanks were significantly higher than the control.

Control with no marine pure 1.64 ug/l
Large marine pure block 51.00 ug/l
Marine pure plate 174 ug/l
Marine pure sphears 32.00 ug/l

I think we are in the same place. While there are some ideas it's not entirely clear why seemingly only a fraction of people have had issues. Could be a simple as the attention to rinsing. Could also be anecdotal and the aluminum isn't actually in a toxic or an available form in the tank. Could be just soft corals are impacted. Lots of different things. I think thought leaders like Randy Holmes-Farley have certainly demonstrated the potential toxicity of aluminum.

So I think the real question is why use marine pure at all? The primary reason was to add high-density filtration the tank but there are other ways to achieve that goal so I am not sure that is good enough considering the unknowns related to aluminum. The other reason is reefers claim rapid results lowering nitrates by simply adding this media to the tank. If it is really that easy I think that's pretty compelling. I have always had my doubts about the media's ability to do that and in this experiment, it certainly didn't seem to achieve that goal. We are working on a revision to that experiment in a bit more realistic envisionment. Hopefully in a few months we will be able to shed additional light on that. We are also curing multiple MP blocks prior so I think we will get a window into if this is an ongoing issue or an initial issue, potentially related to rinsing the duty fines from transport.

@Ryanbrs, Thank you Ryan for the transparency and give information freely to us, you guys are great!!

I will not be removing the MarinePure. I feel confidant it is safe for my livestock and see no reason to remove it. The three blocks I have in my 300 gallon system have been added one at a time. Oldest is 1.5 years and the youngest is 6 months. Never saw any changes or anything like a reaction to adding them.

I don't know if the MarinePure is effective but I've have been dosing potassium nitrate for the last 8 months. I have 3 fat tangs and a Magnificent FF fed several times daily via Ehime feeder NLS, plus nori, plus frozen PE mysis all daily. It's like the nitrate disappears into thin air. I don't do any other new methods or extreme things. I have a skimmer, cheato, and add 2 cups vinegar to my 32 gallon Kalk container, water changes every two weeks. So where are my Nitrates going? Never had a problem with PO4 either.

I am sure that they have some value, I am sure that you (BRS) will find it.

 

[A sea K]

I have had the MP block in my system since start up in Sept of last year. I have not had a triton test or any other for that matter and I see no reason to check into it as my corals all seem happy, this includes my softies as well. I never checked nitrate levels early on but when I did start checking the nitrate has been and still is undetectable (red sea pro test kit) despite my efforts to raise them. I have been dosing potassium sulfate daily for over 3 weeks now, started at 1 ppm daily and have been at 2 ppm daily for the past 2 weeks. Yesterday's test still reads zero and if continues I will bump up my dose to 3 ppm daily starting the first part of next week.

 

[ihavecrabs]

Got the Triton results back today. Again all of these tanks were fed close to identical amounts food, no other inputs and zero water changes over a couple month period of time. Pretty much confirms the results others have had. All of the marine pure tanks were significantly higher than the control.

Control with no marine pure 1.64 ug/l
Large marine pure block 51.00 ug/l
Marine pure plate 174 ug/l
Marine pure sphears 32.00 ug/l

I think we are in the same place. While there are some ideas it's not entirely clear why seemingly only a fraction of people have had issues. Could be a simple as the attention to rinsing. Could also be anecdotal and the aluminum isn't actually in a toxic or an available form in the tank. Could be just soft corals are impacted. Lots of different things. I think thought leaders like Randy Holmes-Farley have certainly demonstrated the potential toxicity of aluminum.

So I think the real question is why use marine pure at all? The primary reason was to add high-density filtration the tank but there are other ways to achieve that goal so I am not sure that is good enough considering the unknowns related to aluminum. The other reason is reefers claim rapid results lowering nitrates by simply adding this media to the tank. If it is really that easy I think that's pretty compelling. I have always had my doubts about the media's ability to do that and in this experiment, it certainly didn't seem to achieve that goal. We are working on a revision to that experiment in a bit more realistic envisionment. Hopefully in a few months we will be able to shed additional light on that. We are also curing multiple MP blocks prior so I think we will get a window into if this is an ongoing issue or an initial issue, potentially related to rinsing the duty fines from transport.

I'd like to see one of your cured blocks and a control tested also. This would confirm if it is a temporary cutting issue or a greater underlying issue.

Either way, you guys are awesome!

 

[jason2459]

I'd like to see one of your cured blocks and a control tested also. This would confirm if it is a temporary cutting issue or a greater underlying issue.

Either way, you guys are awesome!

If you mean a block that has been rinsed directly several times and then sat in a bucket for a month with circulation and had its water 100% changed 4 times to remove any residual dust from manufacturing and transport before starting a 3 to 6 month test for increased Al then that is what I'm doing now.

 

[Scott Campbell]

Got the Triton results back today. Again all of these tanks were fed close to identical amounts food, no other inputs and zero water changes over a couple month period of time. Pretty much confirms the results others have had. All of the marine pure tanks were significantly higher than the control.

Control with no marine pure 1.64 ug/l
Large marine pure block 51.00 ug/l
Marine pure plate 174 ug/l
Marine pure sphears 32.00 ug/l

I think we are in the same place. While there are some ideas it's not entirely clear why seemingly only a fraction of people have had issues. Could be a simple as the attention to rinsing. Could also be anecdotal and the aluminum isn't actually in a toxic or an available form in the tank. Could be just soft corals are impacted. Lots of different things. I think thought leaders like Randy Holmes-Farley have certainly demonstrated the potential toxicity of aluminum.

So I think the real question is why use marine pure at all? The primary reason was to add high-density filtration the tank but there are other ways to achieve that goal so I am not sure that is good enough considering the unknowns related to aluminum. The other reason is reefers claim rapid results lowering nitrates by simply adding this media to the tank. If it is really that easy I think that's pretty compelling. I have always had my doubts about the media's ability to do that and in this experiment, it certainly didn't seem to achieve that goal. We are working on a revision to that experiment in a bit more realistic envisionment. Hopefully in a few months we will be able to shed additional light on that. We are also curing multiple MP blocks prior so I think we will get a window into if this is an ongoing issue or an initial issue, potentially related to rinsing the duty fines from transport.

What seems odd to me is the amount of aluminum released per shape. Would not the large block with 4 times the volume of the plate be expected to leach 4 times the aluminum? If it is a surface area thing, the spheres may have the most surface area. But the plate always seems the most "dusty" and fragile and the Triton test is going to read inert ceramic dust as aluminum the same as if the aluminum has leached out. Kiln fired ceramic media is quite inert - especially if the water ph is not too high or too low. Ceramic dust is also a decent irritant and can have health consequences for humans - so there are likely still concerns with releasing a lot of ceramic dust into an aquarium. But it may not be an issue of aluminum toxicity which is why so many people have not noticed adverse consequences. Many observations indicate a rather immediate negative reaction by soft corals after the introduction of MarinePure media followed by a gradual recovery. I don't think symptoms would recede over time with sustained and perhaps increasing toxic aluminum levels. But a reaction to and irritation from an infusion of ceramic dust would recede over time. I will be curious to see the results of any follow-up tests! Thank you for doing this Ryan.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

But it may not be an issue of aluminum toxicity which is why so many people have not noticed adverse consequences. Many observations indicate a rather immediate negative reaction by soft corals after the introduction of MarinePure media followed by a gradual recovery.

I actually think it is a matter of concentration, but I agree that particulates can have adverse effects too. In my tests of dissolves aluminum ion, I did not see effects at 50 ppb aluminum but did at 500 ppb aluminum. I don't think its correct to claim ceramics are inert and do not dissolve.

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Aluminum In The Reef Aquarium ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/july2003/chem.htm

FYI, at the molecular level, there will be ions on the surface of any ceramic that are inherently more soluble. Edges of planes of ions, amorphous material, etc. Those crystal faces may dissolve fairly quickly and then be mostly gone over time.

 

[Scott Campbell]

I actually think it is a matter of concentration, but I agree that particulates can have adverse effects too. In my tests of dissolves aluminum ion, I did not see effects at 50 ppb aluminum but did at 500 ppb aluminum. I don't think its correct to claim ceramics are inert and do not dissolve.

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Aluminum In The Reef Aquarium ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/july2003/chem.htm

FYI, at the molecular level, there will be ions on the surface of any ceramic that are inherently more soluble. Edges of planes of ions, amorphous material, etc. Those crystal faces may dissolve fairly quickly and then be mostly gone over time.

All true - but "ceramics" is a broad term. Glass is a ceramic material. Alumina-silicate ceramic materials kiln fired close to their melting point will have glass-like surfaces and properties. And it is not easy to dissolve glass. That said - Marine Pure products seem very soft and are probably fired way, way below the point of vitrification. So I expect there is aluminum leaching to some degree especially as the pH increases. But the primary negative effects people see seem more an effect of particulates than dissolved aluminum. And again - if not particulates, then why would a ceramic plate with a quarter of the volume of the ceramic block release 3 times the aluminum?

 

[Monkeynaut]

I have had the MP block in my system since start up in Sept of last year. I have not had a triton test or any other for that matter and I see no reason to check into it as my corals all seem happy, this includes my softies as well. I never checked nitrate levels early on but when I did start checking the nitrate has been and still is undetectable (red sea pro test kit) despite my efforts to raise them. I have been dosing potassium sulfate daily for over 3 weeks now, started at 1 ppm daily and have been at 2 ppm daily for the past 2 weeks. Yesterday's test still reads zero and if continues I will bump up my dose to 3 ppm daily starting the first part of next week.

Why are you attempting to raise NO3?

 

[Monkeynaut]

@Ryanbrs, Thank you Ryan for the transparency and give information freely to us, you guys are great!!

I will not be removing the MarinePure. I feel confidant it is safe for my livestock and see no reason to remove it. The three blocks I have in my 300 gallon system have been added one at a time. Oldest is 1.5 years and the youngest is 6 months. Never saw any changes or anything like a reaction to adding them.

I don't know if the MarinePure is effective but I've have been dosing potassium nitrate for the last 8 months. I have 3 fat tangs and a Magnificent FF fed several times daily via Ehime feeder NLS, plus nori, plus frozen PE mysis all daily. It's like the nitrate disappears into thin air. I don't do any other new methods or extreme things. I have a skimmer, cheato, and add 2 cups vinegar to my 32 gallon Kalk container, water changes every two weeks. So where are my Nitrates going? Never had a problem with PO4 either.

I am sure that they have some value, I am sure that you (BRS) will find it.

How and why do you dose potassium nitrate. I am seeing issues with coral bleaching and tissue loss. I also have NO3 readings of zero

 

[Ryanbrs]

What seems odd to me is the amount of aluminum released per shape. Would not the large block with 4 times the volume of the plate be expected to leach 4 times the aluminum? If it is a surface area thing, the spheres may have the most surface area. But the plate always seems the most "dusty" and fragile and the Triton test is going to read inert ceramic dust as aluminum the same as if the aluminum has leached out. Kiln fired ceramic media is quite inert - especially if the water ph is not too high or too low. Ceramic dust is also a decent irritant and can have health consequences for humans - so there are likely still concerns with releasing a lot of ceramic dust into an aquarium. But it may not be an issue of aluminum toxicity which is why so many people have not noticed adverse consequences. Many observations indicate a rather immediate negative reaction by soft corals after the introduction of MarinePure media followed by a gradual recovery. I don't think symptoms would recede over time with sustained and perhaps increasing toxic aluminum levels. But a reaction to and irritation from an infusion of ceramic dust would recede over time. I will be curious to see the results of any follow-up tests! Thank you for doing this Ryan.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if a lot of this has to do with the attention to rinsing or dust created in transport. I certainly look forward to working with the community to identify what the real value of these medias are as well as how to use them safely. Behind that hoping the real scientists and chemistry thought leaders like Mr. Homes-Farley challenge us to produce valuable, accurate results that further the conversation in a useful manner : )

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

All true - but "ceramics" is a broad term. Glass is a ceramic material. Alumina-silicate ceramic materials kiln fired close to their melting point will have glass-like surfaces and properties. And it is not easy to dissolve glass. That said - Marine Pure products seem very soft and are probably fired way, way below the point of vitrification. So I expect there is aluminum leaching to some degree especially as the pH increases. But the primary negative effects people see seem more an effect of particulates than dissolved aluminum. And again - if not particulates, then why would a ceramic plate with a quarter of the volume of the ceramic block release 3 times the aluminum?

It is not easy to dissolve glass, but it does dissolve. And anything that happens at high or low pH also happens at more neutral pH, only slower. many people thing things like alumina do not dissolve, when in fact they do. It is just not apparent by eye. It hardly takes any to reach a few ppb.

I have no idea how you can, with certainty, say that the effects people see are from particulates. They may be, or not. The effects I saw in my experiments were without doubt from dissolved aluminum since I was using soluble aluminum.

FWIW, Phosguard does release either soluble aluminum, or very, very small particulates since they pass a 0.45 micron filter.

 

[Monkeynaut]

Got the Triton results back today. Again all of these tanks were fed close to identical amounts food, no other inputs and zero water changes over a couple month period of time. Pretty much confirms the results others have had. All of the marine pure tanks were significantly higher than the control.

Control with no marine pure 1.64 ug/l
Large marine pure block 51.00 ug/l
Marine pure plate 174 ug/l
Marine pure sphears 32.00 ug/l

I think we are in the same place. While there are some ideas it's not entirely clear why seemingly only a fraction of people have had issues. Could be a simple as the attention to rinsing. Could also be anecdotal and the aluminum isn't actually in a toxic or an available form in the tank. Could be just soft corals are impacted. Lots of different things. I think thought leaders like Randy Holmes-Farley have certainly demonstrated the potential toxicity of aluminum.

So I think the real question is why use marine pure at all? The primary reason was to add high-density filtration the tank but there are other ways to achieve that goal so I am not sure that is good enough considering the unknowns related to aluminum. The other reason is reefers claim rapid results lowering nitrates by simply adding this media to the tank. If it is really that easy I think that's pretty compelling. I have always had my doubts about the media's ability to do that and in this experiment, it certainly didn't seem to achieve that goal. We are working on a revision to that experiment in a bit more realistic envisionment. Hopefully in a few months we will be able to shed additional light on that. We are also curing multiple MP blocks prior so I think we will get a window into if this is an ongoing issue or an initial issue, potentially related to rinsing the duty fines from transport.

Are these values of aluminum toxic to corals?

Also, where do I find the supplementation schedule for the BRS 160?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are these values of aluminum toxic to corals?

Assuming it is soluble aluminum, the highest value is, or is getting close to the limit. But I don't know the form(s) detected here.

 

[Roggio]

@Ryanbrs When you removed the Marinepure from the BRS160 what steps were followed? Was bacteria dosed? a water change? How did you make up for the loss in bacteria heavy media.

Are you worried about the Reef Rock 2.0 not having the ability to harbor denitrifying bacteria? Or do you plan on the Zeo system picking up the slack.

 

[Monkeynaut]

Assuming it is soluble aluminum, the highest value is, or is getting close to the limit. But I don't know the form(s) detected here.

Good to know about these levels. Obviously we don't know yet if these values are repeatable for the MP; But as for this test, the only dangerous one was the plates (assuming everything that would "leach" had already leached)

 

[Scott Campbell]

It is not easy to dissolve glass, but it does dissolve. And anything that happens at high or low pH also happens at more neutral pH, only slower. many people thing things like alumina do not dissolve, when in fact they do. It is just not apparent by eye. It hardly takes any to reach a few ppb.

I have no idea how you can, with certainty, say that the effects people see are from particulates. They may be, or not. The effects I saw in my experiments were without doubt from dissolved aluminum since I was using soluble aluminum.

FWIW, Phosguard does release either soluble aluminum, or very, very small particulates since they pass a 0.45 micron filter.

Gosh - I'm not claiming certainty about anything! What I said was that it "seems" more an issue of particulates. And I am certainly not disagreeing with you about the ability of glass to dissolve or the ability of alumina to dissolve at a more neutral pH or anything like that.

The point I *am* trying to make which you are choosing not to address is how do you explain the fact that a ceramic plate made of the exact same material, with the same edges and the same general shape, with less surface area, and with one quarter of the volume releases 3.5 times as much aluminum as a ceramic block? That to me "seems" an issue of particulates and not a consequence of dissolved aluminum.

 

[bif24701]

How and why do you dose potassium nitrate. I am seeing issues with coral bleaching and tissue loss. I also have NO3 readings of zero

I add it to raise my nitrate levels. At zero I have nothing but problems so I now keep it >5ppm

 

[siggy]

Given the recent results of trace amounts of aluminum what would be the best method of Seasoning before use, if any. Someone suggested Purgen or a synthetic media. I want to start an all in one for QT & frags and use the Spheres instead of bio-balls, I will be soaking in discarded aquarium water for a week or two prior to startup and this would be a good time for absorption media.
I know I have had excellent results with this product, how else can a old rookie have Low to undetectable nitrates right from the start.
75 gallon, 40 lbs lr, 2 gallon Spheres in corner overflow with riser tube (drawing from top of column) 2 liters matrix in the sump to be fair. 12 fish and more corals than I should. Feeding 2 cubes and occasional pellets daily, phytoplankton twice a week plus Roids or oyster feast 1-2 weekly 12 gal water changes every 7-10 days.
I think it works.