Is Reefing Dying?

[MnFish1]

It is not the frag prices. IMO, it is the false promises, shilling and advertising by a lot of the newer manufacturers and suppliers combined with the inexperience of all the given advice. There is no secret that when people had a berlin-style tank with 100% known commodity lights, that most people were happy and had far more successes once they got some patience.

Potential and supposition has replaced tried and true. Infomercials have replaced books. Loudest and most persistent internet posters with Dunning-Kruger Effect have replaced experience and knowledge.

Dead/dry rock has caused a lot of bad experiences for people. False promises from LEDs have too. Either are fine, but they were not represented for what they are and this leads to too many failures... those people leave the hobby.

All of this being said, the most harmful thing to this hobby, IMO, is that the truly great will not post anymore since they cannot stand to argue with the thumb-suckers with a few-month-old biocube with boogers on frag plugs. I don't blame them, but it is a shame.

I kind of agree with this - why would 'frag prices' keep people out of the hobby - 30 years ago all you could get was huge pieces of coral - which were often very hard to keep alive. Most of the coral people kept in their tanks was 'dead coral'. LFS used to have row and row of it on shelves (and they were also very expensive).

The rest of your post though - seems to be full of the same supposition that you seem not to be in favor of. Many new products have advanced 'the hobby' (and at one point the 'Berlin method' was one of those 'new heretical methods'. Many of the 'gurus' use the new stuff based on what they post on their youtube channels. Dead rock has caused a lot of problems - so has live rock. LED's have caused problems - so have Metal halides and fluorescents. If the 'truly great' have stopped posting - it says more about them than the people that question what they say (IMHO).

One thing I think would be helpful 'for the hobby' and the forums is if people posted some references for 'factual claims' that they make. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[MnFish1]

That's about the silliest thing I've ever read, next you're going to be arguing supply and demand ...... oh ...... uh, well, never mind ....
PS - Marketing 101, say something is 'RARE' (in caps), give it a high price and the sheeple will buy.

If anyone in this day and age, where the internet is easily available to compare prices, read reviews of vendors, etc. is stupid enough to pay someone 800$ for a piece of coral just because the seller says its 'RARE' (caps or not) they deserve it what they get. IMHO the original poster is correct - the seller sets a price he is 'willing to take' for the coral. If someone is stupid enough to pay it - the buyer that hasn't done their research. Of course some people are wealthy enough that $800 for a piece of coral doesn't matter. Most 'sheeple'. look for lower prices, not higher prices thats why every business has sales every weekend. If your logic were correct - and not market driven, the coral seller could say 'SUPER RARE' and ask 5000$ for it - but the market wouldn't bear that cost and the price would come down. Of course its supply and demand (thats economics 101)

 

[ca1ore]

David Saxby (one of the truly great) always used to say that before accepting advice from somebody make them show you their tank. Too many internet 'experts' dispensing dubious wisdom.

 

[ca1ore]

If anyone in this day and age, where the internet is easily available to compare prices, read reviews of vendors, etc. is stupid enough to pay someone 800$ for a piece of coral just because the seller says its 'RARE' (caps or not) they deserve it what they get. IMHO the original poster is correct - the seller sets a price he is 'willing to take' for the coral. If someone is stupid enough to pay it - the buyer that hasn't done their research. Of course some people are wealthy enough that $800 for a piece of coral doesn't matter. Most 'sheeple'. look for lower prices, not higher prices thats why every business has sales every weekend. If your logic were correct - and not market driven, the coral seller could say 'SUPER RARE' and ask 5000$ for it - but the market wouldn't bear that cost and the price would come down. Of course its supply and demand (thats economics 101)

You do realize what I said was 'tongue in cheek' (another problem with online, BTW, hard to convey humour and self deprecation).

 

[MnFish1]

You do realize what I said was 'tongue in cheek' (another problem with online, BTW, hard to convey humour and self deprecation).

Actually - no... I thought you were having an uncharacteristically bad day. Apologies

 

[Whyteboy]

I guess ill throw my .02 out there.

obviously there isnt just one cause of people getting out of the hobby. Lives change, housing situations change, and crap happens. I dont think that a good metric to judge participation is post on a forum. Instagram seems to have a pretty large population of people keeping really nice tanks all in the 20-35 yr old range for the most part. I dont really believe that cost is a huge driving factor either. My first tank was a 40b that I got for 40$ (petco) built my stand and stocked it with frags from local reefers and ebay auctions for <700$ total. WWC which seems to be a gold standard for coral vendors has auctions starting at .99 cents. If your smart and dont buy into other people with fatter pockets BS you can get a really nice tank just by getting underappreciated pieces. I also think that the amount of online vendors speaks to the huge demand and thriving population of the reefing community.

 

[goodefx]

I'm willing to bet that those who are paying $800 for a mushroom are only selling to those who frag coral, wait for it to reproduce and sell it to another frag person.

Wonder how many actually land in a real display tank? I'm not rich but I'm pretty well set and been doing this for years and don't know any real long time reefers who buy these. Might be a generation thing...but following the sales on R2R and you'll see that they are just selling to each other, fun to watch.

How many amazing tanks on youtube have these bounce mushrooms and jaw breakers... that aren't still stuck on plug?

 

[kgstei]

Hey Frankie if you want action on the boards all you have to do is ask the right question. I think you might have hit something here

 

[gar732]

To look at the forums, at least in his area, it would seem it has died down. A lot of people selling stuff and no one buying. A lot of the older names are gone, not just with the club but in the ct area and both forums. Stores are closing down. I guess I’m some areas it’s alive and well but around here it seems so have slowed down.

 

[kevanB]

was getting out had 900 litre system with remote sump and had a crack in tank bought a new tank same size but never got it back in the house it lived in the garage next to the sump, so put up for sale and sold all fish and most of my corals just had some frags left .
then could not get rid of them so bought a all in one cube 750 x 750 600mm H with back 150 mm as sump and stuck frags onto rocks .
they are doing great and colouring up even thou no skimmer ( I have skimmers but all too big to fit )
back in lounge and loving it .

 

[Larry L]

Other folks have mentioned it but I think the declining number of (good) local fish stores makes for a lot fewer newbies getting into the hobby. I was at a local store the other day talking to a guy who is new to the hobby - luckily he had talked to someone who told him about this particular store, because he was getting quality advice there about how to get started (as opposed to the chain store place where he first started asking about tank setups, and got some horribly bad advice).

One of the things we got to talking about is all the online info that's available - while a lot of it is quality information, a lot of it is not, and it's really hard as a newbie to know how to tell the difference. It's also easy for a newbie to poke around the forums and feel like they can't even get their feet wet in the hobby without sinking a bazillion dollars into a setup. I feel like in a way we're all partly to blame for that, because it's fun and interesting to talk about all the new cool cutting edge equipment and methods, but nobody spends much time talking about how you can get started with and have good success with a really basic and relatively inexpensive setup, and grow into the more expensive stuff later. (I'm not talking about going cheap on equipment to start with, because that always hurts in the long run. I'm talking about starting with basic equipment and "easy" corals and manual dosing and such, and accumulating skills and experience over time.)

 

[Centerline]

To look at the forums, at least in his area, it would seem it has died down. A lot of people selling stuff and no one buying. A lot of the older names are gone, not just with the club but in the ct area and both forums. Stores are closing down. I guess I’m some areas it’s alive and well but around here it seems so have slowed down.

I live in FL in the middle of some of the biggest vendors around and I see nothing but growth and this is a good thing. In time there will be enough people in the business to drive prices down a bit. That's said, I doubt that many people understand financial risks involved in aquaculture and the coral business in general. The largest long term risk in this business is stated above, growing competition. In the medium term it comes from the ever increasing prices from the importers and the business's ability to evolve (grow or contract gracefully as the market does). Short term comes down to several factors including general business acumen, changing market value and trends and of course environmental variables both natural and induced. Although I've generalized here I want to point out that there are many reasons to optimize profits when able to do so.

 

[Ranjib]

I've had a tank or two running for 30 years now. I keep it simple, manually dose, no controllers or such lights are most expensive things I've purchased and buy nice little frags of not so expensive corals that look great to me and and enjoy keeping alive and growing, my fish actually are my favorite next to the corals. I've learned to keep it simple, gotta go now and feed the fish.

hugs

 

[Ranjib]

I've been in the hobby for three years. I didn't truly start enjoying it until recently. I stopped chasing the crazy numbers and just stuck to a routine maintenance to keep things stable. I stopped buying any "expensive" corals (anything over 50). All I want now is to see my tank mature and grow. My 90 has been set up for about 6 months.

You have found the balance

 

[Maritimer]

I think that part of it is the instant gratification offered by electronics.

I think that - at least in my neighborhood - some of the folks who have a reef in their home (note, that isn't necessarily the same as "keeping a reef" ... ) saw the pretty pictures online or maybe saw the show on TV, and they've contracted with a service provider to come in and maintain the pretty moving picture-window in their living room. Those aren't the kinds of people who can recover from the heartache of a tank crash. LFS can't pay the overhead in a high-traffic area in the high-rent district and compete with an online business run from a warehouse in a smaller city whose factories shut their doors a decade or two ago. Not by selling fish and frags.

I don't think that reefing is on its deathbed, not by a long shot - but it's certainly evolving and having a bit of a tough go in some areas.

~Bruce, who has had a fishtank of one sort or another at almost every point in his life ... except for those six months when he was living at the very southern tip of Florida...

 

[Frankyrivera]

Just curious besides the fact that you seem to want to get out - what do you base the idea that there are droves of other people that want to do the same?

Not getting out I’ve been in over 15+ years just an observation. Just upgraded I’m in for long haul just not inspired lately.

 

[Frankyrivera]

Man I love this thread may be my favorite right now. So many mixed opinions. So perhaps the term is Reefing dead a bit strong. Clearly I was looking for a title that would attract interest. BINGO!!!! What I’m saying is on here it seems to have slowed a lot. I come on nightly just to check in and nothing new. However the getting out threads keep coming so figured I’d just post the question as to what’s up knowing it would be loaded with varying responses. I may just go and post another thread entitled show us your best pic or FTS only please. Just to get the winter blood flowing focused back on Reefing. Thanks for all the input so far. Finally something to read on the boards.

 

[ca1ore]

Naah, always good to be provocative. Generates a vigorous debate which is never a bad thing. Interest waxes and wanes. My solution when ennui set in ...... Get a bigger tank!

 

[marktea]

I've only been reefing for a short time but have kept freshwater for many years. Directly I've gotten 4 people hooked, indirectly 12 more. I like to think it's up to the people who already have the bug for this wonderful hobby to open others to its magic, it only takes a few minutes of staring and one question

 

[Newb73]

Dead?

The hobby is better than its ever been in terms of research, social networking, technology, knowledge, efficiency, equipment etc.

I can now do water changes with my cell phone and monitor and run the tank from 500 miles away darn near fool proof including crazy stuff like getting a real time par reading, see my tank on my phone, monitor for leaks, change 600ml of water...24 hours a day 7 days a week, run my dosers, and soon will be able to monitor Mg, alk, ca multiple times a day remotely.

I am up to 3 tanks and may get a 4th.

We have better testing kits, better lighting solutions, better information than we have ever had. You can do ANY type of flow you want.

There was never anything that could turn a fuge into an algae reactor like a Kessil grow light in the past and never such a thing as no water change systems, Triton tests, or reliable dosing supplies.

Heck even Nitrate reactors and C02 scrubbers are easy to find. Want to run ozone and monitor ORP? Yawnnn...standard. Large UV systems? Everyone carrys them now.

Never BEEN a better time in reefing.

Now if one we could only administer personality tests to our Tangs and blue throats to see which ones like each other and can get along (it's probably coming).

The dark days were when bad fish stores sold us incompatible disease ridden species and we had to take care of them with little more than a plastic heater, a float hydrometer under CP lights using our undergravel filters... and almost zero sources of reliable information and zero science based research...

The problem is ignorance, time management, patience.

I like to tinker and there are days when I will spend 8 or 9 hours tinkering...ckeaning pumps, turning chaeto, cleaning lights, washing filter socks, testing the water, refilling dosing containers, running ATO water, changing DI, mixing salt water, feeding, reading, watching youtubes, checking apex programming, making to do lists. Some weeks I spend more time w tank than my 40 hours on the job...and I enjoy it.

For the "in getting out threads" I don't read them.

Im not tryna hear how you spent a bunch of money, made a bunch of rookie mistakes, had no back up systems in place and then with your first major set back are announcing to everyone that you quit.

BOOORREED...... I literally do not care about people who got into reefing and just flat out got into the wrong hobby and should probably have taken up yoga or something instead.

Allen. Freshwater since 89, Salt since 02. Corals since 07.