Is Reefing Dying?

[Lofr]

Being a newbie myself with a 2-month old tank, it is quite the learning curve. It's helpful having knowledge with a freshwater tank, so understand the need not to rush, checking the levels, etc. I'm grateful for the information on-line, spending much time here trying to figure things out. There are 4 relatively close LFS here, which helps somewhat - they aren't as helpful as I'd like trying to learn and understand, but I get that maybe they've been through it many times. It is frustrating, too, when trying to buy a frag how you get such a tiny piece yet get no information on placement of it. LFSs are happy to sell you items, just often don't want to take the time to tell you how best to care for them. "Just try it in different places until it seems happy and then glue it down." Now 3 dead zoas later, am apprehensive of spending yet more money on new ones. Buying on-line is yet more cost prohibitive because of the shipping. And as always, every person you ask gives you a different answer. So sometimes I feel like a fish out of water trying to figure the saltwater tank out, lol.

 

[DTSinn]

seems like I come on here and there are less and less post and when there are post it’s about getting out. What gives. Is Reefing dead. What’s killing the hobby. I think it’s greed. This hobby is expensive enough but when people start charging $800 for a 1/4” frag that’s when people start going away. Most pieces are common now and have circulated many tanks. So why the need to charge $100 for something common like a setosa or green slimer. With all these mushroom crazes people get crazy with prices. At the end of the day I think greed is killing the hobby. Oh well just my take since there’s nothing else on here to read about might as well stir the pot a bit. Happy Reefing.

I agree for people who just want to stock their tanks, not show off most rare coral, prices are well not inline with where the hobby needs to be.

 

[Gary Grise]

I took my tank down 6 years ago, super busy at work and it does take a lot work. And my tank was being overrun with ricordia, my daughter went to help in removing the mushrooms and banged my frogspawn, elegance, and hammer which died. I threw in the towel. My family missed the tank so I am back ( and retired). But equipment is expensive with many thousands invested and now with live rock coralline snails brittle stars and crabs but no coral except what came in on live rock. That’s next but this hobby requires a deep pocket to to enter so I suspect that keeps a lot of people out.

 

[Newb73]

Interesting topic.

I work full time at a LFS. I am the President of the local fish club.

I know that with the cub almost all of our old time members have gotten out of the hobby. We were almost dead a couple years ago, but had a resurgence. Currently the club seems to be on a downward spiral again.

Years ago people only had magazines/books, their local fish store and local aquarium clubs to gather their information from. Now we all carry google in our pockets. It's great for sourcing products, but can be a double edges sword for information. There is an overabundance of information out there on the forums and elsewhere but there are a lot of people who do not know enough to be able to decipher the good from the bad or enough personal knowledge to be able to implement what they are reading or watching to incorporate it into their own uses, I see people come to the store check out a product and then google it to see if they can find it cheaper on-line. I always want to ask them how Amazon's customer service is one fish or coral pests and disease.

I feel that the hobby has evolved over the years as with anything. Is the hobby dieing, I think that the online forums filled with the most die hard fans is probably the wrong place to get a real sense of the answer.

To be fair all fish and life sales are final no exceptions at my lfs.....so customer services is non-existent in that regard.

Be that as it may i always try and support the lfs for livestock as my 1st choice and i am a regular customer so he knocks a few bucks off usually.

They dont carry neptune, tunze, aquamaxx, Ecotech etc which is most of my equipment so that is limiting.

It is also hard to beat BRS 5% member points and up to 10% or more on special days.....ie, jusy got $40.00 im store credit on an A360 via group buy.

 

[Newb73]

I have been reading for about a year, changed plans a dozen times, and all I have to show for it is an empty (holding fresh water actually..) 60g-ish tank with a drilled overflow. My paint job on the back sucks (queue frustration). Bought equipment piece by piece. Just to look at it new in box weeks/months later to wonder if I should have gotten this or that instead (queue more frustration).

Soon.. I will have my stand built and plumbing, then.. then I can say that day with my first load of saltwater, I am in the hobby. For now it is more like an inquiry. About 1,000$ inquiry.

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I think the whole daily milliliters of this or grams of that kind of put off new people like myself. So I need to remember to check this element with this test and then dose X to get values of this. Wait, X tester comes with X tests and I have to use it every other day, but I need this test and that one too.. and then the $ screams in my ear.. Upkeep more-so than initial setup costs.

Then I see, oh just change x% water weekly. Oh you can use a fuge with macros to pull out n+p. You really only need these few tests. KISS, ok I can roll with this, read some more.

Then I see algae scrubbers and weekly water changes as viable alternatives and think "I can do that no problem." I have access to free NSW and prefer removing algae, heck I can get free wild Ulva to seed. So'n-so's tank looks great using this method. So I read some more..

Problem is.. I still keep reading. And it causes me to change my mind. lol

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But yeah, as new to the scene, I dont think it is dying. If it is, I call dibs on killing it.

I feel for you.

Since i have a science degree and worked im critical care all the above stuff you mentioned were tgmhe EASY parts of the hobby. Major and minor elements....drip rates...testing procedures.....child's play.

I take it for granted and fall into the trap of looking at people funny who dont understand.

In the same way you might look at somone funny if they didnt know what a car key was for.

The best advice i can give is find an experienced local reefer to mentor you.

 

[Newb73]

The reason I got out was because I drove over the road and my girlfriend gave me the ultimatum, me or that tank!!

 

[Newb73]

Well, I can't speak for anyone else but if I have to choose between spending time with my precious grandchildren or cleaning my tank, the grandkids will win hands down every single time. If I have to choose between fixing our farm fences or buying fish stuff, the fences have to come first. Sometimes my tank gets very little attention: we are prepping our farm for winter in the midwest and reefing is just not as big of a priority as making sure our family is secure for the season.

Involve the grandchildren WITH the tank.

Far more quality time than most other activities such as mindless disney movies or the horrors of chuck e cheese.

 

[Newb73]

I don't spend 2 hours a week on my tank. The right equipment sized properly does save time. Proper planning before you setup also saves time in the long run. You don't need fancy equipment, I don't own an Apex. Most time for a newbie should be reading and more reading. Constant tweaking means no stability and stability is more important that have exact numbers on your parameter. They should be close but stable not exact.

Depends on the tweaking.

If your tweaks are installing better pillumbing, better wiring, more monitoring, more back up systems, improving flow based on coral behavior, feeding, cleaning, harvesting chaeto, refilling dosers, changing filter socks, making RODI....lets jusy say you can work and tweak ad infinitum and the tank only improves.

Anyone who isnt working their tank as a continuous process improvement is going backwards.

 

[snowboard1]

Maybe fading out with people recently getting into it, and not knowing what they are getting into. Seems to be a general trend these days with a lot of things. Instant gratification or nothing... You have to be ready to deal with ups and downs and everything inbetween. And do a lot of work in the meantime. That's what I have learned in my 30 yrs of keeping fish tanks. Cheers.

 

[snowboard1]

oh, and support your LFS!

 

[MnFish1]

I'd like to be able to respond with some good articles or scientific data on the benefits of real ocean live rock, but they are virtually non-existent. I've been able to find some mentions of it here and there and am trying to find more good info as to the "why" because this is a topic that really interests me. I'd like to reply in an intelligent manor and admittedly, not a scientist or even close to one but here goes: I'm not referring to "magic rocks". I'm basing this comment you quoted on my observations working in the aquarium industry professionally with literally hundreds of tanks over the years and my own experiences setting up tanks with both dead dry rock, artificial man made rock, and real ocean live rock. I think we can all agree that a reef tank goes through a stabilization and maturation process, yes? The old guard like Anthony Calfo and others used to say that it look about 1 year before a reef tank had matured. It is my theory that the life contained within live ocean rock including bacteria, sponges, tunicates, detrivores like micro brittle stars, peanut worms, amphipods, copepods, bristle worms, and more help speed up the maturation process and allow for greater margin of error in regards to limiting nutrients and algae growth. The micro and macro fauna contained in live rock, that would "awaken" after a couple to a few weeks would eventually establish a mini ecosystem in the reef tank based on available nutrients. This complex "web of life" I will call it worked behind the scenes consuming detritus and filtering the water.
In a tank that is absent this life, there is reduced competition for available nutrients so things like Dinos and Cyano proliferate in their absence. Depending on the rock and what condition it is in it may have needed to be "cycled" or "cured". With some rock you could start a cycle with the die off on the rock. Other rock was clean and already cured basically ready to go into a tank. This was not a difficult process any more than soaking dead Pukani in bleach or acid is so it doesn't leech nitrate and phosphate into the tank for months. People tried all sorts of things when it came to live rock. Some over thought it and came up with things like "cooking" rock or whatever in effort to kill off whatever perceived evils the rock contained. Hitchhikers could be a pain, that is true. However, with a healthy well maintained system that had good nutrient export, most things like Aiptasia could be kept in check and dealt with with the various tools available. It is my opinion and observation that new hobbyists were more likely to be successful in reef keeping back when real ocean live rock was used as the primary source for biological filtration due to reasons stated above. I'm not trying to say that a tank started with dead rock or artificial rock cannot be successful or eventually lead to a healthy system, just that it makes it more difficult and takes longer to have that mini ecosystem.

Thanks for your answer - and I agree with your thoughts. - Yes - when people first bought live rock - they would buy 'base' rock which had little stuff on it - then several weeks later people would buy the real 'live rock' that had most of the 'stuff' on it. Seems to me the ratio was supposed to be 2/3 base, 1/3 'live rock'. This process also had its problems (die off/hitchhikers, etc) But I agree that tanks could like very nice and have a large number of interesting 'things' to look at.

The current definition of 'live rock' seems (at least where I am) is treated like the old 'base rock' - without any of the other interesting diverse items that used to be present. Granted, some stuff that has survived the shipping process and sitting in the dark in a tank somewhere for weeks grows eventually, but I cant help feeling that the main benefit of 'live rock' as compared to another kind of denitrifying system is the massive surface area within the rock to grow bacteria - which will happen either way.

I wholeheartedly agree with your comments about the length of time required with dead rock etc. I also think another problem is that the concept of 'covering' the 'base/bare" type rocks with 'growing things' does not occur as much now. People have 24 x 60 inch tanks with a nice aquascaped (with rock only) tank - and 10 frags. IMHO, all of this empty space is going to grow 'something'. Just like chaeto takes up nutrients/etc, so does coral (SPS/LPS and Soft). A tank full of coral will do better than a mostly bare tank with a couple frags (again IMHO).

 

[HB AL]

[QUOTE="MnFish1, post: . A tank full of coral will do better than a mostly bare tank with a couple frags (again IMHO).[/QUOTE]
I think your onto something there

 

[Newb73]

I think the popular danty aquascaping in the name of eliminating dead spots will eventually be ruled less than optimal.

No way it can provide the same level of substrate as the "rock wall" and dead spots are not bad....thats where nitrates are remove in anaerobic areas....

 

[JaimeAdams]

To be fair all fish and life sales are final no exceptions at my lfs.....so customer services is non-existent in that regard.

Be that as it may i always try and support the lfs for livestock as my 1st choice and i am a regular customer so he knocks a few bucks off usually.

They dont carry neptune, tunze, aquamaxx, Ecotech etc which is most of my equipment so that is limiting.

It is also hard to beat BRS 5% member points and up to 10% or more on special days.....ie, jusy got $40.00 im store credit on an A360 via group buy.

We are a BRS authorized retailer. Our prices are the same as on BRS's site. Granted we can't give cash back and are forced to charge sales tax.

We have excellent customer service. We do replace fish that die soon after purchase. We have allowed people to return fish for full refund on occasions. Personally I would not guarantee livestock as you have no idea what people are doing to the livestock, what their parameters are or how they acclimate et cetera, but the store does indeed replace dead livestock.

As a hobbyist I am fortunate enough to have a few really good stores in my area. We also have a few horrible stores but there are a couple really good ones as well.

I think that bad stores hurt the hobby more than most other issues. I can't tell you how many people I know of that were sold diseased livestock or given just horrible strait up wrong information.

 

[Ferrell]

I


I am in Southwest Ohio, and have been disappointed in the couple stores I've been to. What's the one that hasn't disappointed?

(Apologize for taking the thread of topic)

No problem. Aquarium Artisans in Cincinnati. Bear in mind this was before I even started just trying to get info since I have been out of the hobby for a bit. Manager, Travis I think, was very knowledgeable and took a lot of time with us. I would feel comfortable stocking pets from there. Although I think just from talking with them they would like to get you on as a maintenance customer they do carry a wide variety of livestock. Not overly huge store but clean and healthy looking, well cared for. Hope this helps. My next stop when I’m get time is in Louisville KY. Read about another store the. Aquatica I think.
It’s hard not being in Florida in this hobby lol

 

[Newb73]

We are a BRS authorized retailer. Our prices are the same as on BRS's site. Granted we can't give cash back and are forced to charge sales tax.

We have excellent customer service. We do replace fish that die soon after purchase. We have allowed people to return fish for full refund on occasions. Personally I would not guarantee livestock as you have no idea what people are doing to the livestock, what their parameters are or how they acclimate et cetera, but the store does indeed replace dead livestock.

As a hobbyist I am fortunate enough to have a few really good stores in my area. We also have a few horrible stores but there are a couple really good ones as well.

I think that bad stores hurt the hobby more than most other issues. I can't tell you how many people I know of that were sold diseased livestock or given just horrible strait up wrong information.

I actually really like my lfs. Be that as it may, they have signs everywhere saying "all livestock sales final"

 

[HB AL]

Here in SoCal it's thriving, a few of the lfs I visit are always crowded even during weekdays. Lots more people in these stores than I used to see in these same stores 30 years ago.

 

[revhtree]

My take just for fun

- Big websites like R2R and RC are loosing a lot of traffic to localized social media groups. most people don't come to forums anymore to talk, but they do to research.

- IMHO people ruin the forum experience with all of the thread bashing. People love to criticize and tell people "there is a search bar for a reason" - This is one of those things that provides astronomical amounts of opinions and lots of out dated information. What was true a few years ago is not necessarily true today, but more than that... the communication gets killed and this become a place to look up stuff, not talk.

- Reefers get in and out of the hobby. It's a common theme for us to get in and out of the hobby. It can take up a lot of time for some people. How many reefers have i seen that sell everything and are still browsing the for sale adds thinking about getting back in.

Finally - I know plenty of people in the hobby who sell pieces at full retail on the side. I do as well. Typically though we are selling collectors pieces. The market gets these pieces by those of us who pay the higher premiums for rare pieces, then propagate them and sell them to make some of our money back. If we don't do that, the pieces never make it to the rest of the market. As each level of interest divides through propagation, the price drops. I buy a HW for 900, sell a few frags for 500. That person then sells a few for 300. The next thing you know you can buy a Walt Disney for 50.00 and everyone is happy.
-Most of us that are selling corals are also giving away the basics. You can't go a day on any of my FB groups where there isn't a person or 2 trying to give away corals for free if someone wants them.

I bed to differ! We're not losing traffic but gaining and have for for the past 10 years. Also I know you don't post much but we don't allow flaming here and we don't just tell people to search. Also it seems you run FB groups so you might have a little bias.

 

[Royce White]

First of all you have to like a challenge. We are trying to do what Mother nature took millions of years to do. I don't think we are going to be able to that in a glass cage very successfully. But it is rewarding when you make small advances.

 

[Newb73]

I bed to differ! We're not losing traffic but gaining and have for for the past 10 years. Also I know you don't post much but we don't allow flaming here and we don't just tell people to search. Also it seems you run FB groups so you might have a little bias.

Whats face book?

Isn't that the place where trolls go to spread mockery and grandmothers go to die???