Is Ruby Reef Rally sufficient treatment for marine velvet?

[aykwm]

Hello everyone,
Few days ago I had marine velvet outbreak that wiped half of my fish population.
I have Reefer 525 (140 gallons)
Salinity: 1.024
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: ~10
PO4: undetectable
the rest of the parameters (all, calc, mg,...) are within the healthy range

So I added the fish and everything was fine no signs and nothing at all. I decided to add a mccosker flasher wrasse. Quarantining it for 30 days showed no signs of any infections or diseases, so I added it to the display tank. Two days after adding it, my tangs showed what appeared to be marine ich. I read online that if the fish are healthy and eating and showing no stress, the marine ich will disappear (it will still infect the fish but it won't be lethal, and by time they will develop immunity). So I observed the fish and everything seemed normal, all are healthy, eating all the time and no other signs of stress except the spots on the tangs. Then, two days later when I woke up, I saw half of the fish dead. I read online and saw that it might be marine velvet. I checked the symptoms on the surviving fish, some are reaching the top or through the flow to grasp air, and they are breathing heavily. Fish are flashing, and they hate bright light, and so on. So I was sure that it was marine velvet. I added ruby reef rally and I only had one fish die after 2 hours of the treatment (i think it was already too late). Until now no other fish died *knock on wood*.

So my question is is ruby reed rally sufficient treatment for marine velvet. I saw the active ingredients, acriflavine and formalin and they seem to help relief from and treat the marine velvet respectively. I took that approach because most of the survivors are wrasses which are very difficult to catch in reef tank. My dosing program is as follows (days 1,2,3,5,7,11) I am still at day 3.

If it is sufficient to eliminate marine velvet, when can I start adding new fish to replace the dead fish. Some say keep the tank fallow for 76 days, but since I'm treating the tank, will this reduce the period even if fish are still in tank. Few told me that after treatment, observe the fish for few days and if they show no more symptoms you can add the new fish directly. Four of the fish still have spots but they decreased since adding Rally.

Finally, for future quarantining, is there any preventative measures against marine velvet or ich or any other parasites while in quarantine, other than copper or other toxic medications. The wrasse that had it showed no sign that it was a carrier, and until now only one out of the 6 wrasses showed few spots on its fin. It seems that the wrasse have some kind of immunity against marine velvet, especially after discussing my issue with fellow reefer, he also had marine velvet wipe out and only his wrasses survived it.

Sorry for the long post.
Your answers are much appreciated.

 

[Brew12]

Hello everyone,
Few days ago I had marine velvet outbreak that wiped half of my fish population.
I have Reefer 525 (140 gallons)
Salinity: 1.024
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: ~10
PO4: undetectable
the rest of the parameters (all, calc, mg,...) are within the healthy range

So I added the fish and everything was fine no signs and nothing at all. I decided to add a mccosker flasher wrasse. Quarantining it for 30 days showed no signs of any infections or diseases, so I added it to the display tank. Two days after adding it, my tangs showed what appeared to be marine ich. I read online that if the fish are healthy and eating and showing no stress, the marine ich will disappear (it will still infect the fish but it won't be lethal, and by time they will develop immunity). So I observed the fish and everything seemed normal, all are healthy, eating all the time and no other signs of stress except the spots on the tangs. Then, two days later when I woke up, I saw half of the fish dead. I read online and saw that it might be marine velvet. I checked the symptoms on the surviving fish, some are reaching the top or through the flow to grasp air, and they are breathing heavily. Fish are flashing, and they hate bright light, and so on. So I was sure that it was marine velvet. I added ruby reef rally and I only had one fish die after 2 hours of the treatment (i think it was already too late). Until now no other fish died *knock on wood*.

So my question is is ruby reed rally sufficient treatment for marine velvet. I saw the active ingredients, acriflavine and formalin and they seem to help relief from and treat the marine velvet respectively. I took that approach because most of the survivors are wrasses which are very difficult to catch in reef tank. My dosing program is as follows (days 1,2,3,5,7,11) I am still at day 3.

If it is sufficient to eliminate marine velvet, when can I start adding new fish to replace the dead fish. Some say keep the tank fallow for 76 days, but since I'm treating the tank, will this reduce the period even if fish are still in tank. Few told me that after treatment, observe the fish for few days and if they show no more symptoms you can add the new fish directly. Four of the fish still have spots but they decreased since adding Rally.

Finally, for future quarantining, is there any preventative measures against marine velvet or ich or any other parasites while in quarantine, other than copper or other toxic medications. The wrasse that had it showed no sign that it was a carrier, and until now only one out of the 6 wrasses showed few spots on its fin. It seems that the wrasse have some kind of immunity against marine velvet, especially after discussing my issue with fellow reefer, he also had marine velvet wipe out and only his wrasses survived it.

Sorry for the long post.
Your answers are much appreciated.

I've never researched adding formalin to a DT so I'm not really sure how it will impact the Velvet long term. I'll see if I can find some answers on if it will take out the tomonts if someone who already knows doesn't post soon.

As for immunity, that is a complex topic. Fish can become immune to both Ich and Velvet. Ideally, you would get them from the retailer already immune and they would live long, happy lives. There are a few issues though. If fish are stressed they can lose their natural adaptive immunity to parasites in a very short period of time. They also lose their adaptive immunity if they aren't exposed to the parasite for 6 months.
Fish that tend to live in a small area on a reef, such as clowns and wrasses, have much stronger innate immunity than fish that swim over large areas. Some Tangs especially have rather weak innate immunities since they swim away from parasites instead of living with them. While they can gain an immunity it is more hit or miss with them.

As for future QT methods, you can use the tank transfer method to get rid of Ich. It would also work with Velvet but you would need to do transfers every 18 hours which makes it much less practical. Otherwise, copper and CP are the only reliable methods to eradicate it.

 

[aykwm]

Thank you for your response. I didn't know about the tank transfer, it seems much safer than copper. Just a fast question for this quarantine method. Why should I do tank transfer every 18 hours? From what I read online, the torment cycle is 48-96 hours. So would once every two days be sufficient. Can I use it for velvet for the first 5 days doing tank transfer every 48 hours, and then continue the rest of the days for ich? because from what I understand velvet can attach to fish from 12hr up to 4 days.

So will a following schedule work

Day 1
Day 3
Day 5 (Velvet free)
Day 8 (Ich free)

Sorry I'm not familiar very much with the life cycles, I'm basing this on what I found online
Correct me if I'm wrong but marine velvet can stay attached to fish for upto 4 days, hence by day 4 it will drop any remaining velvet parasites and the next day the fish will be in new tank. The two days intervals is because the velvet can hatch in as little as 48 hours or up to 28 days. So doing tank transfers after 2 days (around 45 hours later) would not allow the newly hatched parasites to find a host.

And then for ich same idea, but the parasite might stay attached upto 7 days, and it needs minimum 3 days to divide and hatch, hence by day 7 all the parasites will be out, and by day 8 fish is velvet and ice free.

Please advise me if I'm wrong.

 

[ncaldwell]

I feel like the 2 days would be fine but you're going to want to do a few extra transfers just in case. For ick I did a total of 5 just to make sure. I bet you could get away with less but why risk getting it in the display. For Ick I did 72 hours and everything worked out great, even the Achilles tang made it through no problem in regular 5 gallon buckets, granted he was a little smaller

 

[aykwm]

I feel like the 2 days would be fine but you're going to want to do a few extra transfers just in case. For ick I did a total of 5 just to make sure. I bet you could get away with less but why risk getting it in the display. For Ick I did 72 hours and everything worked out great, even the Achilles tang made it through no problem in regular 5 gallon buckets, granted he was a little smaller

Then I believe a better schedule will be
Daily from 1-9
Every other day 9-15

 

[Maritimer]

I don't think Ruby Reef Rally will be sufficient to eradicate velvet, and I'd imagine you'd have to use a tremendous amount of it to treat a display for as long as it would take to do so. Having read some user reviews of the stuff, it doesn't sound as reef-safe as they'd like you to think, either.

According to this article: http://www.ultimatereef.com/articles/marinevelvet/ , trophonts can attach, feed, and detach in as little as 12 hours - or stay put as long as four days. I would think that such a range would make it difficult to "outrun". Daily ... maybe.

Welcome to Reef2Reef, by the way!

~Bruce, who uses copper . . .

 

[Brew12]

Thank you for your response. I didn't know about the tank transfer, it seems much safer than copper. Just a fast question for this quarantine method. Why should I do tank transfer every 18 hours? From what I read online, the torment cycle is 48-96 hours. So would once every two days be sufficient. Can I use it for velvet for the first 5 days doing tank transfer every 48 hours, and then continue the rest of the days for ich? because from what I understand velvet can attach to fish from 12hr up to 4 days.

So will a following schedule work

Day 1
Day 3
Day 5 (Velvet free)
Day 8 (Ich free)

Sorry I'm not familiar very much with the life cycles, I'm basing this on what I found online
Correct me if I'm wrong but marine velvet can stay attached to fish for upto 4 days, hence by day 4 it will drop any remaining velvet parasites and the next day the fish will be in new tank. The two days intervals is because the velvet can hatch in as little as 48 hours or up to 28 days. So doing tank transfers after 2 days (around 45 hours later) would not allow the newly hatched parasites to find a host.

And then for ich same idea, but the parasite might stay attached upto 7 days, and it needs minimum 3 days to divide and hatch, hence by day 7 all the parasites will be out, and by day 8 fish is velvet and ice free.

Please advise me if I'm wrong.

I said 18 hours because I wasn't thinking correctly. I meant to say 36 hours. I would do this instead of 48 hours just to provide a safety margin. I believe there was a study that showed trophonts can stay on a fish for up to 5 days but I need to research that a bit more. Can't find the study right now.

 

[aykwm]

I don't think Ruby Reef Rally will be sufficient to eradicate velvet, and I'd imagine you'd have to use a tremendous amount of it to treat a display for as long as it would take to do so. Having read some user reviews of the stuff, it doesn't sound as reef-safe as they'd like you to think, either.

According to this article: http://www.ultimatereef.com/articles/marinevelvet/ , trophonts can attach, feed, and detach in as little as 12 hours - or stay put as long as four days. I would think that such a range would make it difficult to "outrun". Daily ... maybe.

Welcome to Reef2Reef, by the way!

~Bruce, who uses copper . . .

Thank you for your reply.
Im still in the third day, I'm thinking of dosing till day 11. So far I didn't lose any invertebrate, my shrimp is still working hard to clean the fish. The corals are still healthy and opening during the day. I increased the blue/violet spectrum on the lights because I read that most losses are due to discoloration which reduces photosynthesis which leads to the loss of corals.

I already bought the supply for the treatments days, I just want to make sure it will be effective or no? How do I know that I got rid of all the velvet in the tank. As mentioned earlier wrasses showed no signs at all, except for one, the rest are starting to heal up, although spots are still present.

 

[Maritimer]

Will be very interested to hear your results!!

~B.

 

[aykwm]

Will be very interested to hear your results!!

~B.

I hope it can get rid of marine velvet completely, because I researched a lot about ruby reef rally and its always mentioned in medications to keep on hand, but never seen threads about people dosing them in reef tanks and say they are working. Most of them are either dips or baths in quarantine, and most work because it is sterile environment not an infected DT.
The only confident person that this will work is CEO of Ruby Reef, so hopefully he is right.

 

[melypr1985]

Rally most likely wont cure velvet. It's only real helpful ingredient is the acriflavin which is an antiseptic. It may be reducing the amount of velvet on the surface or in the gills of the fish (without totally eradicating it) thus allowing them to not suffocate and die as quickly. Some may build up a temporary immunity to it while others may still perish in time.

 

[aykwm]

Rally most likely wont cure velvet. It's only real helpful ingredient is the acriflavin which is an antiseptic. It may be reducing the amount of velvet on the surface or in the gills of the fish (without totally eradicating it) thus allowing them to not suffocate and die as quickly. Some may build up a temporary immunity to it while others may still perish in time.

So in your opinion should I continue the treatment process and see if it is cured, or should I catch all the fish and run the tank fallow for 76 days.

 

[melypr1985]

So in your opinion should I continue the treatment process and see if it is cured, or should I catch all the fish and run the tank fallow for 76 days.

I would treat and run fallow to be honest. You can continue the treatment and see what happens though... just know you are running a risk with a very dangerous parasite. If you continue to use rally in the display, be sure to document and take lots of pictures so we can all learn from the experience.

 

[ngoodermuth]

I would treat and run fallow to be honest. You can continue the treatment and see what happens though... just know you are running a risk with a very dangerous parasite. If you continue to use rally in the display, be sure to document and take lots of pictures so we can all learn from the experience.

+1, I've used rally baths fairly often of late (stubborn bacterial infection) and I really couldn't see it having much effect on parasites. I wouldn't want formalin (a known carcinogen)in my reef tank either, although I believe the amount of formalin in rally is actually pretty minuscule.

If I were you, I'd catch, treat with copper, and go fallow. Actually, I am in the process of doing that myself right now. And I have 4 wrasses.

Here's my QT journal, though the more recent entries are centered more on this bacterial thing I can't quite kick.

Crypto wins the gamble- QT Journal

https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/Crypto-wins-the-gamble--QT-Journal.301955/

 

[aykwm]

Thank you for your inputs, ill start preparing the quarantine tank so within the next few days I can catch and transfer the fish.

What are your thoughts on hydroplex also by ruby reef. I read many mixed reviews about them.

 

[Brew12]

Thank you for your inputs, ill start preparing the quarantine tank so within the next few days I can catch and transfer the fish.

What are your thoughts on hydroplex also by ruby reef. I read many mixed reviews about them.

My understanding is that Hydroplex is basically hydrogen peroxide with an antibiotic/antiseptic. We know that H2O2 will effectively kill parasites but I haven't seen enough studies showing how effective it is at different dosing levels.
I file it as promising but not proven.

 

[Bob Escher]

I don't think Ruby Reef Rally will be sufficient to eradicate velvet, and I'd imagine you'd have to use a tremendous amount of it to treat a display for as long as it would take to do so. Having read some user reviews of the stuff, it doesn't sound as reef-safe as they'd like you to think, either.

According to this article: http://www.ultimatereef.com/articles/marinevelvet/ , trophonts can attach, feed, and detach in as little as 12 hours - or stay put as long as four days. I would think that such a range would make it difficult to "outrun". Daily ... maybe.

Welcome to Reef2Reef, by the way!

~Bruce, who uses copper . . .

Rally can be used in a tank if I remember the instruction ( I'm not getting up to get the bottle) use 30 ML per ten gallons for three days and can be used longer
Some people say that it's better to use in a dip instead of treating the whole tank
I have used it with success

 

[aykwm]

Thank you all for the inputs, as an update to what is happening now.

I tried catching the fish to move them to quarantine, but it was so difficult, so I decided to continue with the treatment since one week is left and then if it didn't work ill just remove all the live rocks, corals, inverts from the reef in order to catch the fish.
The treatment seems to work fine, the spots are all gone, but now Im starting to see the symptoms of flukes (cloudy eyes, fin rot, and now some discolored patches on the body of the fish started showing) Just to note that all my wrasse are still healthy and showing no symptoms at all, the only symptoms are showing on the rest of the fish. Probably flukes was already there but didn't show up except when marine velvet was dealt with and cleared from the fish body.

I started adding prazipro in order to treat it since I read that formalin will cure the ones in the gills only and not who are under the scales. Also ill benefit from this because many hitchhiking worms came with the live rock, I know they are beneficial, but I've seen videos of them getting big and I don't want to deal with them later on. My dosing schedule of prazipro will be Day 1,7,14 just to ensure Ive eliminated flukes completely.

 

[aykwm]

Update*

I am sure they have flukes, but maybe its a mild case (probably because of the medication in the tank).

I was checking the aquarium and around 5 hitchhiker worms were there. 4 of them were bristle worms, but one was completely different. It is white, 1/2 inch in length and looks like it has jaws maybe. It doesn't have legs, and it wiggles its body for movement. I tried to take a picture of it but it was blurry and then after a while it hid back in the live rock, but it was moving so aggressively that I think its dyeing.

I found my tang sleeping outside next to the front corner, so I decided to give it a try and catch it to do FW dip in order to confirm flukes. I did 5 min dip and then returned it to the tank to continue treatment. I was looking through the bucket and found what seem to be few salt particles, I'm not sure what they are. In addition to that, I found 3-4 flukes at the bottom of the bucket. After the dip the tang still has cloudy eyes, the color became pale (probably because of the stress and the fact it was sleeping prior to the dip), but so far its swimming normally and breathing is still rapid, but a bit slower than before the dip.

This is a picture of the fox face, couldn't catch him to do fw dip on him. If any one can help with the symptoms. The discoloration is because he is sleeping, during the day he shows normal coloration (Black body and yellow tail).

Thanks again for your help appreciate it

 

[aykwm]

I managed to take a photo of the tang, unfortunately it doesn't look as healthy as the fox face, this tang was one of the first fish to show signs of spots, fortunately it seems to improve (spots wise) except for the recent fin rot.