Is there a general purpose reef-safe antibiotic I can dose in the tank?

jaxteller007 · Dec 10, 2020

@Jay Hemdal @Humblefish is there a reef safe general purpose antibiotic to dose in the tank? We have a marine betta that got popeye in one eye. I can't see any other issues with it and the water parameters are the same they have been forever. All i can think is that she injured the eye somehow.
We have various hermits and snails of course and only 3 corals. A duncan, a zoa and a kenya tree. Just want to try and make sure I do whatever is possible to help her heal and get better. Unfortunately catching her and setting up a hospital/QT tank isn't possible right now. In our new house next year that's definitely going to be set up though that doesn't do much good right now.

jaxteller007 · Dec 10, 2020

sorry for posting it in the wrong spot, thanks for moving it!

jaxteller007 · Dec 10, 2020

#reefsquad

nereefpat · Dec 10, 2020

Popeye can be from an injury and heal on its own, if other things are kept up to par. I've seen that.

I have treated popeye in a large angel (Asfur or Maculosus) in a display with maracin/ maracin 2. I wouldn't really call it a reef though.

That said, antibiotics should be pretty safe for inverts. I would keep the tank well aerated and check for ammonia daily.

Let's see what Jay and others have to say.

Jay Hemdal · Dec 10, 2020

Can you post a picture? The subtle details of popeye can change how it is treated. There are three basic causes; mechanical trauma, bacterial infection and supersaturation. I can't always tell which caused it from a picture, but sometimes I can.

If it is bacterial, erythromycin is usually a good choice and that would be Maracyn 1. Now, is that reef safe? People dose their reefs with it to control slime algae, but I think it may cause some issues in some tanks.

Jay

jaxteller007 · Dec 10, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
Can you post a picture? The subtle details of popeye can change how it is treated. There are three basic causes; mechanical trauma, bacterial infection and supersaturation. I can't always tell which caused it from a picture, but sometimes I can.

If it is bacterial, erythromycin is usually a good choice and that would be Maracyn 1. Now, is that reef safe? People dose their reefs with it to control slime algae, but I think it may cause some issues in some tanks.

Jay

I'll see if I can get a picture tomorrow. I'm not home right now. I feel like it's got to be mechanical/physical trauma as no other fish are showing any issues. But its not like they can yell us right?

jaxteller007 · Dec 12, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
Can you post a picture? The subtle details of popeye can change how it is treated. There are three basic causes; mechanical trauma, bacterial infection and supersaturation. I can't always tell which caused it from a picture, but sometimes I can.

If it is bacterial, erythromycin is usually a good choice and that would be Maracyn 1. Now, is that reef safe? People dose their reefs with it to control slime algae, but I think it may cause some issues in some tanks.

Jay

jaxteller007 · Dec 12, 2020

Her eye hasn't gotten worse, but not better either. And she's real inactive right now.

AquaBiomics · Dec 12, 2020

The dose and choice of antibiotic are gonna make the difference on this one. There is a risk of killing the beneficial microbes depending on the medicine and dose.

When in doubt I always prefer to keep antibiotics out of the tank, but have recently found that at low doses Cipro actually does not harm the tank microbiome. So ... risky but doable.

I wish we knew the pathogen so we could make an informed decision about antibiotic and dose. I dont know of any reports identifying a pathogen for this one, does anyone else?

jaxteller007 · Dec 12, 2020

AquaBiomics said:
The dose and choice of antibiotic are gonna make the difference on this one. There is a risk of killing the beneficial microbes depending on the medicine and dose.

When in doubt I always prefer to keep antibiotics out of the tank, but have recently found that at low doses Cipro actually does not harm the tank microbiome. So ... risky but doable.

I wish we knew the pathogen so we could make an informed decision about antibiotic and dose. I dont know of any reports identifying a pathogen for this one, does anyone else?

It seems like there are so many possible causes of Popeye that unless you have access to the testing equipment its guess work.

Tired · Dec 12, 2020

Don't just put antibiotics into your aquarium. Aside from the fact that it can harm your biological filtration, if the dose is too low, you can wind up doing nothing but building antibiotic resistance in local bacteria. If a fish needs antibiotics, it should go in a QT where you can make sure to get the dose to the proper level.

jaxteller007 · Dec 12, 2020

Tired said:
Don't just put antibiotics into your aquarium. Aside from the fact that it can harm your biological filtration, if the dose is too low, you can wind up doing nothing but building antibiotic resistance in local bacteria. If a fish needs antibiotics, it should go in a QT where you can make sure to get the dose to the proper level.

That would be why I asked the question without putting anything in the tank.
And unfortunately we aren't able to have a QT/hospital tank set up currently. That will change in 2021 but we just have to deal with it as is for now.

Tired · Dec 12, 2020

It sounds like an infection may not even be the cause. Just keep your water clean, and if it's an injury, she should recover fine on her own.

RVA REEF · Dec 12, 2020

They are pretty shy fish and you have some tangs that are getting big and will become monsters soon, so it could be very stressed and got sick from that. You may want to upgrade sooner than later.

jaxteller007 · Dec 12, 2020

RVA REEF said:
They are pretty shy fish and you have some tangs that are getting big and will become monsters soon, so it could be very stressed and got sick from that. You may want to upgrade sooner than later.

Only 1, the vlamingi and he's the most docile fish in the tank just about. The rest are pretty much full grown, yellows may get a little bigger but I doubt by much.
Actually I think just about everyone in the tank except the vlamingi is probably about full grown. I think the 180 they are in should do for awhile.

jaxteller007 · Dec 12, 2020

Tired said:
It sounds like an infection may not even be the cause. Just keep your water clean, and if it's an injury, she should recover fine on her own.

I got her in an acclimation box in good flow this morning and went lights out so hopefully we can give her some nice quiet, calm time to recover.

I will say shes been injured before by what I have to assume was the pistol shrimp. A couple times she had little, tiny bites in a fin. Those of course healed up really quickly.

RVA REEF · Dec 12, 2020

I saw a vlamingi, lietenant tang, blue tang, yellow and foxface, which can get big and some can easily outgrow a 180 and limit your stocking selections with other fish. I have also seen these fish pick on marine bettas. All fish have different personalities and some may be more aggressive than others in certain setups. If you plan on keeping all the fish together in the future id say you would want to upgrade to a tank around 350 gallons.

AquaBiomics · Dec 12, 2020

jaxteller007 said:
That would be why I asked the question without putting anything in the tank.
And unfortunately we aren't able to have a QT/hospital tank set up currently. That will change in 2021 but we just have to deal with it as is for now.

While the common wisdom for years has been that you can't put antibiotics in tanks, I think this rule may need to be reconsidered.

When I experimented with in-tank treatments at low dosages for a coral disease, I found that the aquarium microbiome was not harmed.

Experimenting with in-tank antibiotic treatments for Brown Jelly Disease

Brown Jelly Disease (BJD) is an issue many reefers have run into. Like most coral diseases, the pathogen causing BJD has not been conclusively determined. Here I will share some observations and test results supporting the idea that its caused by...

www.reef2reef.com

I'm certainly not saying its harmless. I suggest lots of caution and planning if you pursue this route. But sometimes an in-tank treatment makes practical sense and I wish we had more data on pathogens so we could plan our treatments appropriately.

Tired · Dec 12, 2020

The question about antibiotic use in reef tanks isn't just whether it'll harm the reef tank. There's the very real question of if you're going to give the bacteria in the tank a resistance to antibiotics. Bacteria can pass genes between each other, so if a harmless species picks up an antibiotic-resistant gene, that can be passed to something more harmful.

As for the pistol shrimp, they don't go out and attack fish. If the marine betta went into its burrow area, the pistol might have gone after it.