Is this necrosis?

[SocalS14]

Hi...had this acro as an experiment. Wanted to see if I could manage keeping it. Had for about a month. Tank params:

Nitrate : 8.6
Phos : 0.18
Alk : 7.8
Calc : 375
Lighting : 2x Nicrew 150s + 1x Nicrew 100

I run mostly blues, with an hour of white everyday.

Ca is a little low...working on boosting that.

Here is the coral. Everything else in the tank looks good. Thoughts?

 

[Bhuddafunk]

Yes, in one form or another it appears to be either RTN or STN. As to what caused it, that's another question. I'm unfamiliar with your lighting so you will probably want to make sure your PAR is greater than 200 in my opinion and your phosphates appear a bit high to me and your calcium and ALK a bit low. Has there been any significant sway in the parameters?

 

[SocalS14]

Yes, in one form or another it appears to be either RTN or STN. As to what caused it, that's another question. I'm unfamiliar with your lighting so you will probably want to make sure your PAR is greater than 200 in my opinion and your phosphates appear a bit high to me and your calcium and ALK a bit low. Has there been any significant sway in the parameters?

No, no big swings. Tank has been pretty stable...perhaps a slight elevation of phos from .15. I did add some new corals a few days ago. Nothing is close by though.

 

[Bhuddafunk]

Acros are difficult, I've woken up on some mornings and found a completely bleached out stick instead of living coral. Have you checked for any potential pests?

No, no big swings. Tank has been pretty stable...perhaps a slight elevation of phos from .15. I did add some new corals a few days ago. Nothing is close by though.

Acros are difficult, I've woken up on some mornings and found a completely bleached out stick instead of living coral. Have you checked for any potential pests?

 

[Pod_01]

When starting with acros most of us end up with collection of dead sticks.

In your case I would bring up the Ca to 420. The other parameters look good.
Acros do require flow… they need flow to remove waste and to bring new supply of nutrients, Alk, Ca etc…

 

[crazyfishmom]

Maybe frag the piece that’s not showing necrosis yet. You may have a change of saving the piece that’s not yet affected. It tends to be progressive once it starts.

 

[RockBox13]

Mark another tissue necrosis or dead coral down for low alk and low pH. There’s no reason for Acropora or other corals to start disintegrating unless there’s a problem with the major elements or parameters Unless you suspect there was a major problem that happened quickly, it’s something that has been off for a while. Stress from a low pH or low alk accumulates and the coral weakens to the point it can’t resist anymore. Coral bleaching events in Nature due to heat stress are predictable with a formula that calculates how warm the water has been and for how many days. it’s the same with the other major parameters. Small temporary shifts out or range are tolerated for a period of time, but continued stress and multiple issues affecting the coral add up. That’s why you see individual corals at different levels of health in the same tank. Get your alkalinity and pH up first off. I didn’t see a number for pH but I would bet my house that it’s low.

“What are degree heating weeks?
NOAA Coral Reef Watch degree heating weeks (or DHW) is a widely used tool used to measure accumulated heat stress in an area and predict coral bleaching risk throughout tropical coral reef ecosystems.
It is calculated by combining the intensity of daily temperature extremes and the total time when daily temperatures exceed the bleaching threshold over the previous three months. Significant coral bleaching is predicted above 4 DHW and coral mortality is expected above 8 DHW.
Degree heating weeks are a NOAA heat stress product”.

 

[crazyfishmom]

Mark another tissue necrosis or dead coral down for low alk and low pH. There’s no reason for Acropora or other corals to start disintegrating unless there’s a problem with the major elements or parameters Unless you suspect there was a major problem that happened quickly, it’s something that has been off for a while. Stress from a low pH or low alk accumulates and the coral weakens to the point it can’t resist anymore. Coral bleaching events in Nature due to heat stress are predictable with a formula that calculates how warm the water has been and for how many days. it’s the same with the other major parameters. Small temporary shifts out or range are tolerated for a period of time, but continued stress and multiple issues affecting the coral add up. That’s why you see individual corals at different levels of health in the same tank. Get your alkalinity and pH up first off. I didn’t see a number for pH but I would bet my house that it’s low.

“What are degree heating weeks?
NOAA Coral Reef Watch degree heating weeks (or DHW) is a widely used tool used to measure accumulated heat stress in an area and predict coral bleaching risk throughout tropical coral reef ecosystems.
It is calculated by combining the intensity of daily temperature extremes and the total time when daily temperatures exceed the bleaching threshold over the previous three months. Significant coral bleaching is predicted above 4 DHW and coral mortality is expected above 8 DHW.
Degree heating weeks are a NOAA heat stress product”.

I am curious, what alkalinity and pH do you recommend for Acropora?

 

[Pod_01]

Mark another tissue necrosis or dead coral down for low alk and low pH.

How do you figure his issue is related to Alk of 7.8 and low pH when pH was not even mentioned???
Are you some high Alk salt salesman?

In general formulas/ observations derived from the oceans do not always translate to our reef boxes. Our reef tanks are really ghettos compared to the ocean where nutrients are plentiful, Alk, Ca etc… are at constant levels.
Reef box doesn’t provide ocean like environment or stability.

Alk level of 6.5 to 8.5 dKh will work. You can run higher but only long term reefers seem to succeed since nutrients play important role. I tried elevated Alk and I was looking at beautiful white sticks.

As always here is anecdotal evidence to show Alk of 8 dKh and pH in 7.7-8.1 range doesn’t kill acros.

I got this acro about month ago:

The plug is encrusted, polyps are out…. Sure the low pH might slow the growth rate but I am not in the coral farming business.

Many successful reefs and reef farms run in the 6.5-8.5 dKh range.

 

[RockBox13]

I am curious, what alkalinity and pH do you recommend for Acropora?

Short answer: 10-12 dKH & pH 8.3-8.4. I want consistent pH always between 8.2-8.4 as a priority.
Looooong answer: The dKH could be anywhere from 8 up to 12, what I really want is as much consistency at 8.3-8.4 as I can get. If 9dKH gets you two days at 8.2-8.4 and you’re good dosing Alk every other day, now you’ve got your target and routine set for consistency. I have been lucky to have been able to see and care for a large number of my favorite Genus of corals over the years from QT to farming. The large majority of our tanks are under 200g and we’re dosing a two part. The Alkalinity part is almost always a specific carbonate and bicarbonate blend. Tanks with a calcium reactor are specifically different in the carbonate heavy Alk they supply at a pH of about 6.5 by using CO2 to dissolve the aragonite. That results in a different water chemistry that can give the most amazing results at a lower KH and pH.

Unless, you have a controller and dosing pump for your Alk or one part, it’s your lookout to keep it steady. Since Reef tanks use Alk more than anything, it’s in a constant state of being depleted in multiple ways. Your pH is affected in a major way by the rate of the acidification of the water, oxygenation levels and the amount of CO2 from the atmosphere and decaying organic matter. The detritus in a sand bed or hidden in rocks is all the animal waste, uneaten food and everything else acidifying your water and using up KH. Then consider the amount of alkalinity and minor elements used up while coralline algae is starting to really get going and new corals are being added. On top of this, you’re being told to “not add anything you can’t test for”, “harsh chemicals” or to make micro adjustments to nitrate and phosphate and to clear up deficiencies over weeks. Nitrate and Phosphate are very important for the symbiotic zooxanthellae in the coral to supply energy via photosynthesis. What nitrate and phosphate don’t provide is all of the other necessary nutrition a coral needs like protein and fats, and Omega 3 fatty acids, amino acids, digestible Calcium other major, minor and trace elements, also some vitamins and carbohydrates only supplied through phytoplankton. This is all happening while the slow growing anaerobic bacteria responsible for breaking down nitrate and keeping nitrate from becoming toxic nitrite again aren’t well established or being added frequently to the water. People say words like “biodiversity” and “microbiome”, but they rarely tie that to the phytoplankton and other nutritional requirements for a diverse and abundant micro fauna and growth of filter feeders like sponge and tunicates.
I don’t dispute that corals can have good growth and generally better color in a lower pH down to 7.8 and KH from 7. Even if you don’t have a calcium reactor. My first focus is on an environment that is the cleanest and healthiest for all corals and invertebrates that makes acclimation easy and accelerates healing and recovery from any damage or stress. My focus on a frag tank or farming system is different and what I want from my own reef tanks is different from the other situations as well. What’s making it difficult for so many people to successfully cycle their aquarium and reach the kind of stability and growth that they want to see is the same over and over. New tanks end up in an endless fight against Dinoflagellates and tissue necrosis because of all the BS about nitrate and phosphate levels & ratio, carbon dosing, disregarding or misunderstanding pH and KH, tank biodiversity, cycling and coral nutrition is completely wrong for new aquarists who need to learn the fundamentals and how to test for and to control the major parameters. There should be no Cyano/Dino or nuisance algae problems in a properly cycled tank and coralline algae should be consistently building up before any corals are added. If you can’t grow coralline algae, you’re probably gonna have a more difficult and expensive time growing corals and it will probably seem like you have to walk a tightrope with a blindfold on to keep things just alive.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I am curious, what alkalinity and pH do you recommend for Acropora?

Looks to be an imbalance with calcium and alk which balance with each other. Ph wont be an issue until alk is out of whack Some other causes for this are:
- Alkalinity spike
- Temperature spike
- Salinity spike
- Low dissolved oxygen
- Poor water quality related with phosphate levels up to 5 ppm
- Change in water flow
- Additions of sand
- Changes in brand of salt
- Bad test kits giving faulty results
- Levels of minor elements such as Iodine, Potassium, Strontium
- Light intensity
- Addition of new rock

 

[crazyfishmom]

Short answer: 10-12 dKH & pH 8.3-8.4. I want consistent pH always between 8.2-8.4 as a priority.
Looooong answer: The dKH could be anywhere from 8 up to 12, what I really want is as much consistency at 8.3-8.4 as I can get. If 9dKH gets you two days at 8.2-8.4 and you’re good dosing Alk every other day, now you’ve got your target and routine set for consistency. I have been lucky to have been able to see and care for a large number of my favorite Genus of corals over the years from QT to farming. The large majority of our tanks are under 200g and we’re dosing a two part. The Alkalinity part is almost always a specific carbonate and bicarbonate blend. Tanks with a calcium reactor are specifically different in the carbonate heavy Alk they supply at a pH of about 6.5 by using CO2 to dissolve the aragonite. That results in a different water chemistry that can give the most amazing results at a lower KH and pH.

Unless, you have a controller and dosing pump for your Alk or one part, it’s your lookout to keep it steady. Since Reef tanks use Alk more than anything, it’s in a constant state of being depleted in multiple ways. Your pH is affected in a major way by the rate of the acidification of the water, oxygenation levels and the amount of CO2 from the atmosphere and decaying organic matter. The detritus in a sand bed or hidden in rocks is all the animal waste, uneaten food and everything else acidifying your water and using up KH. Then consider the amount of alkalinity and minor elements used up while coralline algae is starting to really get going and new corals are being added. On top of this, you’re being told to “not add anything you can’t test for”, “harsh chemicals” or to make micro adjustments to nitrate and phosphate and to clear up deficiencies over weeks. Nitrate and Phosphate are very important for the symbiotic zooxanthellae in the coral to supply energy via photosynthesis. What nitrate and phosphate don’t provide is all of the other necessary nutrition a coral needs like protein and fats, and Omega 3 fatty acids, amino acids, digestible Calcium other major, minor and trace elements, also some vitamins and carbohydrates only supplied through phytoplankton. This is all happening while the slow growing anaerobic bacteria responsible for breaking down nitrate and keeping nitrate from becoming toxic nitrite again aren’t well established or being added frequently to the water. People say words like “biodiversity” and “microbiome”, but they rarely tie that to the phytoplankton and other nutritional requirements for a diverse and abundant micro fauna and growth of filter feeders like sponge and tunicates.
I don’t dispute that corals can have good growth and generally better color in a lower pH down to 7.8 and KH from 7. Even if you don’t have a calcium reactor. My first focus is on an environment that is the cleanest and healthiest for all corals and invertebrates that makes acclimation easy and accelerates healing and recovery from any damage or stress. My focus on a frag tank or farming system is different and what I want from my own reef tanks is different from the other situations as well. What’s making it difficult for so many people to successfully cycle their aquarium and reach the kind of stability and growth that they want to see is the same over and over. New tanks end up in an endless fight against Dinoflagellates and tissue necrosis because of all the BS about nitrate and phosphate levels & ratio, carbon dosing, disregarding or misunderstanding pH and KH, tank biodiversity, cycling and coral nutrition is completely wrong for new aquarists who need to learn the fundamentals and how to test for and to control the major parameters. There should be no Cyano/Dino or nuisance algae problems in a properly cycled tank and coralline algae should be consistently building up before any corals are added. If you can’t grow coralline algae, you’re probably gonna have a more difficult and expensive time growing corals and it will probably seem like you have to walk a tightrope with a blindfold on to keep things just alive.

Thanks for the thorough response. All good for thought. To some extent the one consistent trend in all successful reef tanks seems to be ability to maintain stability within certain almost universal parameters. Just always good to see what those are for different people.

 

[RockBox13]

Thanks for the thorough response. All good for thought. To some extent the one consistent trend in all successful reef tanks seems to be ability to maintain stability within certain almost universal parameters. Just always good to see what those are for different people.

I agree completely about stability within universal parameters. An important thing about Alkalinity to remember is that blended cab/bicarb Alk buffers are made to increase pH to 8.4 and no higher. Even if you overshoot it by quite a bit. You’re not going to have pH continue to rise to a dangerous level even at 16dKH. Of course the drastic imbalance with Cal/ Mag etc. level is not wanted, it’s not toxic and it doesn’t make the pH more base. It would just pin your pH at 8.4-8.3 for a longer period of time. If you don’t have an Alk controller/doser, how might you stabilize your pH consistently at any number from 7.8 to 8.2 for any significant length of time? Note how consistently it’s not a crazy low pH or KH associated with the problems people experience with individual Euphyllia or Acropra necrosis. What there is in common is a pH and KH consistently in the low range, 8.0 pH 8 KH and lower, the coral was previously healthy for several weeks or months, tanks are generally smaller in size (75g-15g) similar in age from 3 to 12 months or older tanks still possibly experiencing Dinos and or algae problems. No gravel vacuuming, beneficial bacteria, phytoplankton (live or dry), nutritional supplement of vitamins, iodine, carbohydrates, amino acids being added or macroalgae refugium. I have never seen evidence to support that a rise in alkalinity or pH was more likely to have caused necrosis, bleaching or death of a coral than some other cause or multiple causes. It’s easy to find evidence a KH swing or large rise of 2dKH or more had no negative effects at all. Where are the tanks with flesh peeling off of Acropora or brown jelly on dead Euphyllia or Dinos that are consistently kept at a pH of 8.3-8.4 and KH of 10 and higher?

 

[RockBox13]

I found this post and readout from an Acropora lover in about 9 seconds.

from 12/3/23

 

[crazyfishmom]

I agree completely about stability within universal parameters. An important thing about Alkalinity to remember is that blended cab/bicarb Alk buffers are made to increase pH to 8.4 and no higher. Even if you overshoot it by quite a bit. You’re not going to have pH continue to rise to a dangerous level even at 16dKH. Of course the drastic imbalance with Cal/ Mag etc. level is not wanted, it’s not toxic and it doesn’t make the pH more base. It would just pin your pH at 8.4-8.3 for a longer period of time. If you don’t have an Alk controller/doser, how might you stabilize your pH consistently at any number from 7.8 to 8.2 for any significant length of time? Note how consistently it’s not a crazy low pH or KH associated with the problems people experience with individual Euphyllia or Acropra necrosis. What there is in common is a pH and KH consistently in the low range, 8.0 pH 8 KH and lower, the coral was previously healthy for several weeks or months, tanks are generally smaller in size (75g-15g) similar in age from 3 to 12 months or older tanks still possibly experiencing Dinos and or algae problems. No gravel vacuuming, beneficial bacteria, phytoplankton (live or dry), nutritional supplement of vitamins, iodine, carbohydrates, amino acids being added or macroalgae refugium. I have never seen evidence to support that a rise in alkalinity or pH was more likely to have caused necrosis, bleaching or death of a coral than some other cause or multiple causes. It’s easy to find evidence a KH swing or large rise of 2dKH or more had no negative effects at all. Where are the tanks with flesh peeling off of Acropora or brown jelly on dead Euphyllia or Dinos that are consistently kept at a pH of 8.3-8.4 and KH of 10 and higher?

I find in general that the people who can keep their pH stable at 8.3-8.4 do keep higher alkalinity but there’s also a trend for them: experience. It’s hard for newbies to maintain pH at those levels stable (myself included) without using additives that also raise alkalinity to levels that are hard to keep stable without the experience to dose expertly. It is easier to maintain stable pH and alkalinity at let’s say 7.8-7.9 with alkalinity between 9-10 without considerable input. All part of the learning curve.

 

[crazyfishmom]

from 12/3/23

Someone in the hobby that I respect a lot told me that continued fluctuations are much more damaging than a single spike that is then slowly allowed to equilibraste. Good luck! I’m rooting for you and your corals.

 

[Pod_01]

My first focus is on an environment that is the cleanest and healthiest for all corals and invertebrates that makes acclimation easy and accelerates healing and recovery from any damage or stress.

Can you expand on this a bit. I do believe that is a key and probably important for new reefer vs chasing high Alk/pH. Some might read that and strip the water column of everything and make it sterile. I don’t think that is what your statement implies.

Also here is really good article written by Randy that explains the relationship between Alk, pH and co2:

Alkalinity stability? pH stability? Are they even different?

It is currently the dogma of the reef aquarium hobby to say that alkalinity stability is very important for SPS corals, and that pH is not. Often, the very idea of someone trying to optimize pH is called “chasing numbers” as if that statement by itself shows it to be foolish. Since I have...

www.reef2reef.com

Based on that article swings in pH are lot more detrimental vs. the swing in Alk.
I failed in that regards and only time that I achieved any stability is when house is empty for a week+ (vacation).

 

[RockBox13]

I find in general that the people who can keep their pH stable at 8.3-8.4 do keep higher alkalinity but there’s also a trend for them: experience. It’s hard for newbies to maintain pH at those levels stable (myself included) without using additives that also raise alkalinity to levels that are hard to keep stable without the experience to dose expertly. It is easier to maintain stable pH and alkalinity at let’s say 7.8-7.9 with alkalinity between 9-10 without considerable input. All part of the learning curve.

I want to apologize for my words that come off as disrespectful or overly confident. If I repeat similar words in the same sentence or there are strange mistakes in grammar. I do have a glitch that causes those problems and typing on a phone just delays my responses more. Please feel free to set me straight if I am forgetting my manners in any way or if I’m making too many of those syntax errors. You can call me names and use all caps too. The “glitch” affects my memory and some things are very detailed and precise for me, but I refer to names, dates or insignificant details more to keep my own timelines correct or for some possible verification of anything I say AND/BECAUSE of a very clear psychological need for validation that I acknowledge is problematic, useless and unnecessary. But, I do have a lot pf experience that means nothing to me unless everyone believes it! Sorry. ‍

 

[crazyfishmom]

I want to apologize for my words that come off as disrespectful or overly confident. If I repeat similar words in the same sentence or there are strange mistakes in grammar. I do have a glitch that causes those problems and typing on a phone just delays my responses more. Please feel free to set me straight if I am forgetting my manners in any way or if I’m making too many of those syntax errors. You can call me names and use all caps too. The “glitch” affects my memory and some things are very detailed and precise for me, but I refer to names, dates or insignificant details more to keep my own timelines correct or for some possible verification of anything I say AND/BECAUSE of a very clear psychological need for validation that I acknowledge is problematic, useless and unnecessary. But, I do have a lot pf experience that means nothing to me unless everyone believes it! Sorry. ‍

LOL… I don’t take anything anyone says negatively. I am here to learn. I find that most people who make blanket comments make them because they know what they’re talking about but they also know what they’re talking about because they’ve been doing this for x number of years. I mentor a lot of early stage scientists who are incredibly bright but make mistake after mistake after mistake not because they don’t understand the science but because they don’t have the experience to correct minor mistakes as they make them. We are all at different stages of this journey. And we all want beautiful reef tanks. I 100% believe yours should be the target range. Some day, when I’ve made more mistakes than the ones I’ve already made I will be able to self correct without nuking my tank. Till then, I’ll continue on this journey. Asking what appear to be silly questions. And learning a little along the way. I appreciate any wisdom I can get. One of mentors once told me that there is nothing like a naive question to make you realize that you need to slow down and break it all into tiny pieces. I do that constantly with everything. Including as I teach myself a little about how to run a tank!

 

[RockBox13]

Can you expand on this a bit. I do believe that is a key and probably important for new reefer vs chasing high Alk/pH. Some might read that and strip the water column of everything and make it sterile. I don’t think that is what your statement implies.

Also here is really good article written by Randy that explains the relationship between Alk, pH and co2:

Alkalinity stability? pH stability? Are they even different?

It is currently the dogma of the reef aquarium hobby to say that alkalinity stability is very important for SPS corals, and that pH is not. Often, the very idea of someone trying to optimize pH is called “chasing numbers” as if that statement by itself shows it to be foolish. Since I have...

www.reef2reef.com

Based on that article swings in pH are lot more detrimental vs. the swing in Alk.
I failed in that regards and only time that I achieved any stability is when house is empty for a week+ (vacation).

Thanks for asking. I respect Mr. Farley very much and I’m thankful for his knowledge and guidance from afar for a very long time. He’s obviously way more educated than I am and better at expressing it. His articles and writings influenced me more than anyone to put water quality first in importance, to do the work testing water before and after any intended changes and in triplicate for a long time using digital checkers and titration kits in comparison on multiple reef aquariums several times every week. It took a couple of years before I actually trusted my own observations, my experience and ability to test water, interpret the results and make the right changes for the specific aquarium.
The short answer is that through receiving coral and invertebrate shipments of all kinds I saw a clear difference in health/mortality of corals and invertebrates. SPS & LPS necrosis from stress or bacterial infection could be treated and stopped quickly if the infection was completely cut out of the tissue and skeleton. The rehabilitation of damage started to be noticeable within days.