Jacked Up SPS prices

[Krzydmnd]

Something a lot of people don’t think about is overhead. Even for a small shop like mine, maintenance and equipment, electricity, advertising, website, payment processing fees, dead loss, shipping costs and supplies, taxes, etc. All of these increase the true “cost” of every coral I sell. And that’s without adding in profit yet. And every business is different in this. Some have more overhead, employees, etc. And yes some do charge a lot for “profit”. But if people are willing to pay it, then it is what it is.

This so much. Many people that aren't on the business side of anything retail complain about pricing. Small businesses are hard to run, requires time and dedication that not everyone has, and all kinds of costs many people don't even think about.

There are plenty of $20 bread and butter frags in this industry for anyone on a budget, but you can't blame the sellers for making a few bucks on high end pieces.

It's all market driven, and fortunately for most of the sellers in this specific industry its hobbyist driven so why not give them what they're time and effort is worth? Don't like it? Amazon will probably be selling coral soon and tank the livestock market too.

 

[skiergd011013]

My favorite business saying is "if you make the customer happy, theyll tell 2 or 3 people. If you tick the customer off, theyll tell 9 or 10". This place wont be around long.

 

[Legal Reefer]

Luckily the shops I deal with have very reasonable pricing on corals and all other livestock, but they are all 70 to 90 miles away. I'll eventually try some online vendors that have good reviews. Price is only part of it, as no one wants to see unhealthy or suffering livestock. There are only two saltwater shops close to me. They have fair prices, but I don't like the condition of their tanks or livestock so I take the long drive. I understand that some corals can possibly be higher priced because of availability and cost to care for and grow them out. (Overhead). I also know that there are private sellers and vendors that are price goughing and making a very high profit. Not all, but some. Thankfully there are still a lot of great vendors just trying to make a decent living while enjoying what they do.

 

[maxwell]

Hi
I don't think people realise the long hours and 7 days a week( don't include trying to plan and take holidays) commitment these small shops do to source quality corals and fish .Boom corals are spot on the lfs here in the UK work their nuts off and I don't see any Porsche/mercs outside, you should forget the ebay /shed sellers and support your LFS and dedicated onliners its the only way to sustain this hobby. Think about how long it takes you to maintain a quality reef and then multiply that by 100% ,I wouldn't run a reef store for all the tea in China.just my opinion
Bill

 

[Legal Reefer]

Hi
I don't think people realise the long hours and 7 days a week( don't include trying to plan and take holidays) commitment these small shops do to source quality corals and fish .Boom corals are spot on the lfs here in the UK work their nuts off and I don't see any Porsche/mercs outside, you should forget the ebay /shed sellers and support your LFS and dedicated onliners its the only way to sustain this hobby. Think about how long it takes you to maintain a quality reef and then multiply that by 100% ,I wouldn't run a reef store for all the tea in China.just my opinion
Bill

 

[Legal Reefer]

I totally agree on that. Only reason I travel is because the only local is petco (Not really a fish store). They are new to my area and have no employees in this particular store with any saltwater experience. The ones I travel to and deal with put a lot of pride and work into their shops and it shows. They are fairly small stores for the most part, two to five employees. One of my favorites is ran by the owner and one employee. He has had his store for over 15 years and is very passionate about reef keeping. He isn't the lowest priced, but has always been so helpful in sharing his knowledge and information with me that he will get my business. Actually the better priced store I deal with has five employees or so. I get there when they open at times, and several are driving high end cars or really nice newer trucks. They cut their own frags and travel to hand pick some of their livestock. Their tanks are always nice with healthy looking animals. I guess the three shops I deal with know their market because I haven't seen any outrageously priced corals or frags in any of them. I am in Fayetteville NC with a large military base nearby and a fairly large population. Hard to believe there aren't any saltwater stores here.

 

[Braves Fan]

If I were smart,,, I would just leave this thread alone :) I consider myself an average,,, run of the mill reefer,, and its not that I won't pay some nice $$$ for a really nice frag,,, I will & have & will do so in the future,,,

Its not until the frag arrives at my house and I see what the vendor,, pretty much all of them,,, with a few exceptions has sent me,,, that I get upset,,, I feel that what the vendor really wants me to do,, is to just send him my money and he will send me nothing in return,,, because that is pretty much what they sent me,,, I for one,,, wait in anticipation for the day to come that Amazon.com gets into the coral business and drive some of the vendors to the unemployment line,,,

I know that is kind of a harsh thing to say,,, but it is what it is,,,

 

[Coronus]

I went in to a Orlando fish store last week and saw some sweet acro pieces. But the prices were insane. Some pieces were $100 more than What I have seen at many frag swaps. I specifically was looking for a hot piece that I have seen for $250 at swaps by reputable vendors on atleast 3 occasions. But this store wanted an additional $100 and would not budge on price. I just walked out! Honestly I go into the fish stores with good intentions but usually only buy fish because I feel ripped off. Truth is, hobbiest sell it waaay cheaper and in some cases the pieces are better taken care of. I really want to help my LFS and keep him in business. But I wont pay more than market value and that market value includes retail, selling boards, and frag swaps. Not just retail.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

At the end of the day, coral frags follow the standard supply/demand price curve. Vendors charge a lot for named frags because people pay so much for named frags. If you really want to change how the game is played, stop playing.

If you see a coral online, at a frag swap, or at your LFS that you think is overpriced, ask the seller why that particular animal costs so much:

You: Excuse me, why does this frag cost so much?
Seller: Why that's XYZ Tenuis! Look at the crazy colors when I turn off the whites!
You: Yes it's a fine looking specimen. But it looks very similar to any other Tenuis under normal lighting. This one just has a bit of orange on the tips of the polyp under all blue lighting. So why the high price?
Seller: This is a limited release frag from Coral Farmer ABC. There are only a few of these, they're so rare! It's a bargain at this price!
You: It is certainly nice. However, I can't afford to pay $450 for a quarter of an inch of coral. Is there any chance you can come down on the price?
Seller: No, I'm sorry, I can't. This coral is far too rare, and you won't find color like this anywhere else!
You: I'm sorry to hear that. I agree that it's a beautiful specimen, but there are many other cheaper frags on the market that have similar coloration, even if they're not identical to this frag. In light of that, I simply can't afford this price.

If we as a hobby continue to buy named frags at high prices, then vendors will continue to sell named frags at high prices. The only way prices will change is if we stop paying the high prices. Be sure to actively engage vendors who sell expensive frags and let them know why you are not buying. Don't be rude or belligerent, and don't try to convince them that their prices or wrong or that their corals aren't great: simply reiterate that with so many colorful and cheap corals out there, there's no way you can afford to spend so much on one tiny animal. Money above all else moves businesses. If enough hobbyists say no to expensive designer corals, businesses will have to sell them cheaper. There's no alternative.

This is not at all meant as a slight toward @chris3del because this is exactly what he did. I just feel like we really need to decide what's important in this hobby. Is having a "status symbol" acro frag, whose coloration you can't appreciate unless your nose is pressed to the glass of your tank, really all that important? I don't think so (and neither does Adam over at BattleCorals by the way).

 

[Mattrg02]

This so much. Many people that aren't on the business side of anything retail complain about pricing. Small businesses are hard to run, requires time and dedication that not everyone has, and all kinds of costs many people don't even think about.

There are plenty of $20 bread and butter frags in this industry for anyone on a budget, but you can't blame the sellers for making a few bucks on high end pieces.

It's all market driven, and fortunately for most of the sellers in this specific industry its hobbyist driven so why not give them what they're time and effort is worth? Don't like it? Amazon will probably be selling coral soon and tank the livestock market too.

Sorry, but I have to disagree completely with this. If you need to sell a nib for $500 to turn a profit, then YOU need to be in a different business.

My LFS has designer corals and sells them at a FRACTION of the price that hombres here are selling them at. Like JF fox flame for $50 and Orange Passion for $50. Got me a RMF acid trip for $24 the other day.

I can't stand the attitude that makes us buyers seem like ignorant pricks that are picking on the poor sellers just trying to make ends meet.

 

[Mandelstam]

I'm new to this hobby and amazed at some of the prizes I see. And it makes me think of Tulipmania in Holland during the 1600s when speculation drove prizes on tulip bulbs insanely high. Then the market crashed almost over a day.

"According to Mackay, the growing popularity of tulips in the early 17th century caught the attention of the entire nation; "the population, even to its lowest dregs, embarked in the tulip trade".[10] By 1635, a sale of 40 bulbs for 100,000 florins (also known as Dutch guilders) was recorded. By way of comparison, a ton of butter cost around 100 florins, a skilled laborer might earn 150-350 florins a year, and "eight fat swine" cost 240 florins."

 

[Servillius]

The only way to combat this is to beat them at their own game via better prices.

If I had some of these, ready to go, I'd sell them at a fraction of the price to those that agree to do the same.

It is a big word. If it was easy to sustain a business doing this for less, it would be done for less.

There are unquestionably scammers in this business and they need to be called out. That said, there are many very reputable companies out there making a living doing an honest job of sourcing corals, coloring them up and growing them, then selling the stand outs for a premium. I love Battle Corals to think of one. I’d pay double for his frags if they were the cheapest crap out there. They’re amazingly healthy and his customer service is excellent. Fortunately they’re not the cheapest crap out there, they’re amazing corals as well.

If price is the most important factor to you, you may want to consider you’re sometimes part of the problem. Do you pay extra for good customer service or do you buy the frag from some place cheaper? Do you buy your frags by weight, or by how well they do in your tank? Are you loyal to the guys who give you good service and support? Even when they cost more? If it’s all about price, you’re going to spend a lot of time bumping into fly by night operations.

 

[Mattrg02]

It is a big word. If it was easy to sustain a business doing this for less, it would be done for less.

There are unquestionably scammers in this business and they need to be called out. That said, there are many very reputable companies out there making a living doing an honest job of sourcing corals, coloring them up and growing them, then selling the stand outs for a premium. I love Battle Corals to think of one. I’d pay double for his frags if they were the cheapest crap out there. They’re amazingly healthy and his customer service is excellent. Fortunately they’re not the cheapest crap out there, they’re amazing corals as well.

If price is the most important factor to you, you may want to consider you’re sometimes part of the problem. Do you pay extra for good customer service or do you buy the frag from some place cheaper? Do you buy your frags by weight, or by how well they do in your tank? Are you loyal to the guys who give you good service and support? Even when they cost more? If it’s all about price, you’re going to spend a lot of time bumping into fly by night operations.

Once I decide to buy, several factors come into play. First and foremost, I won't buy from an unknown seller. Second, I won't buy a frag that is so small that it couldn't handle me sneezing near the tank.

There is a beach bum montipora frag for sale, here, that is so small that I mistook the "mother colony"'as the frag for sale. That's insulting.

If my LFS can do it, so can others. There just isn't any other way around that unless he's selling crack around back to keep his place afloat.

As far as support goes, there isn't much more they can do if not come to your house and tell you why their frag is stn in your tank. Advice can be had, readily, here online.

 

[BoomCorals]

Sorry, but I have to disagree completely with this. If you need to sell a nib for $500 to turn a profit, then YOU need to be in a different business.

My LFS has designer corals and sells them at a FRACTION of the price that hombres here are selling them at. Like JF fox flame for $50 and Orange Passion for $50. Got me a RMF acid trip for $24 the other day.

I can't stand the attitude that makes us buyers seem like ignorant pricks that are picking on the poor sellers just trying to make ends meet.

Well, that depends on the business. LFS bread and butter isn't saltwater livestock. It's freshwater livestock (freshwater is more popular and higher margins by far), equipment, and service. (service usually the highest margins) So, if a business is livestock only based, then yea, they might need to rely upon higher margin higher priced frags to make ends meet. For them that's their "service/equipment" high margin stuff that LFS rely upon. So while you think your LFS is being great, it's really just them trying to get you into the store in hopes you'll buy other higher margin items that are THEIR bread and butter.

 

[Servillius]

At the end of the day, coral frags follow the standard supply/demand price curve. Vendors charge a lot for named frags because people pay so much for named frags. If you really want to change how the game is played, stop playing.

If you see a coral online, at a frag swap, or at your LFS that you think is overpriced, ask the seller why that particular animal costs so much:

You: Excuse me, why does this frag cost so much?
Seller: Why that's XYZ Tenuis! Look at the crazy colors when I turn off the whites!
You: Yes it's a fine looking specimen. But it looks very similar to any other Tenuis under normal lighting. This one just has a bit of orange on the tips of the polyp under all blue lighting. So why the high price?
Seller: This is a limited release frag from Coral Farmer ABC. There are only a few of these, they're so rare! It's a bargain at this price!
You: It is certainly nice. However, I can't afford to pay $450 for a quarter of an inch of coral. Is there any chance you can come down on the price?
Seller: No, I'm sorry, I can't. This coral is far too rare, and you won't find color like this anywhere else!
You: I'm sorry to hear that. I agree that it's a beautiful specimen, but there are many other cheaper frags on the market that have similar coloration, even if they're not identical to this frag. In light of that, I simply can't afford this price.

If we as a hobby continue to buy named frags at high prices, then vendors will continue to sell named frags at high prices. The only way prices will change is if we stop paying the high prices. Be sure to actively engage vendors who sell expensive frags and let them know why you are not buying. Don't be rude or belligerent, and don't try to convince them that their prices or wrong or that their corals aren't great: simply reiterate that with so many colorful and cheap corals out there, there's no way you can afford to spend so much on one tiny animal. Money above all else moves businesses. If enough hobbyists say no to expensive designer corals, businesses will have to sell them cheaper. There's no alternative.

This is not at all meant as a slight toward @chris3del because this is exactly what he did. I just feel like we really need to decide what's important in this hobby. Is having a "status symbol" acro frag, whose coloration you can't appreciate unless your nose is pressed to the glass of your tank, really all that important? I don't think so (and neither does Adam over at BattleCorals by the way).

At the end of the day, coral frags follow the standard supply/demand price curve. Vendors charge a lot for named frags because people pay so much for named frags. If you really want to change how the game is played, stop playing.

If you see a coral online, at a frag swap, or at your LFS that you think is overpriced, ask the seller why that particular animal costs so much:

You: Excuse me, why does this frag cost so much?
Seller: Why that's XYZ Tenuis! Look at the crazy colors when I turn off the whites!
You: Yes it's a fine looking specimen. But it looks very similar to any other Tenuis under normal lighting. This one just has a bit of orange on the tips of the polyp under all blue lighting. So why the high price?
Seller: This is a limited release frag from Coral Farmer ABC. There are only a few of these, they're so rare! It's a bargain at this price!
You: It is certainly nice. However, I can't afford to pay $450 for a quarter of an inch of coral. Is there any chance you can come down on the price?
Seller: No, I'm sorry, I can't. This coral is far too rare, and you won't find color like this anywhere else!
You: I'm sorry to hear that. I agree that it's a beautiful specimen, but there are many other cheaper frags on the market that have similar coloration, even if they're not identical to this frag. In light of that, I simply can't afford this price.

If we as a hobby continue to buy named frags at high prices, then vendors will continue to sell named frags at high prices. The only way prices will change is if we stop paying the high prices. Be sure to actively engage vendors who sell expensive frags and let them know why you are not buying. Don't be rude or belligerent, and don't try to convince them that their prices or wrong or that their corals aren't great: simply reiterate that with so many colorful and cheap corals out there, there's no way you can afford to spend so much on one tiny animal. Money above all else moves businesses. If enough hobbyists say no to expensive designer corals, businesses will have to sell them cheaper. There's no alternative.

This is not at all meant as a slight toward @chris3del because this is exactly what he did. I just feel like we really need to decide what's important in this hobby. Is having a "status symbol" acro frag, whose coloration you can't appreciate unless your nose is pressed to the glass of your tank, really all that important? I don't think so (and neither does Adam over at BattleCorals by the way).

May I ask why, if there are cheaper, similar corals out there, you don’t just buy those?

I’ll be honest, I have $10,000 in my tank counting only the tank and stand. Add to that the filtration, additives, pumps, equipment, and electricity and the total gets to be lots. For that money I get 16 cubic feet of water to decorate. I really want what I want. I spend a lot of time mixing my colors and species just right. My frags are a small portion of the total hobby expense.

Is it possible the market is there to satisfy us both? If it’s not that important to you, there is a cornucopia of great corals with great colors out there. Heck, my favorite coral is my old friend the purple stylo. On the margins though there are a few corals out there that have a little more going for them in ways that some of us want. I’m willing to pay more, sometimes quite a bit more when something is unique and adds something to my collection. Why get upset that I can get that if you’re happy with the alternative?

If you’re not happy with the alternative however, you’re saying you do in fact value and prize the frag you have your eye on. You just don’t like having to pay to get it. Is it really surprising someone who values it enough to fork over the money is going to get it instead? Would either of us be better off if the quality vendors who keep bringing this variety to market lost interest in finding great frags because they can’t sell them for a premium?

 

[Mattrg02]

Well, that depends on the business. LFS bread and butter isn't saltwater livestock. It's freshwater livestock, equipment, and service. (service usually the highest margins) So, if a business is livestock only based, then yea, they might need to rely upon higher margin higher priced frags to make ends meet. For them that's their "service/equipment" high margin stuff that LFS rely upon. So while you think your LFS is being great, it's really just them trying to get you into the store in hopes you'll buy other higher margin items that are THEIR bread and butter.

I can assure you that this guy's bread and butter is coral, with fish a distant second. Never has he tried to sell me anything else.

His store is full of tanks that are full of corals.

 

[Mattrg02]

May I ask why, if there are cheaper, similar corals out there, you don’t just buy those?

I’ll be honest, I have $10,000 in my tank counting only the tank and stand. Add to that the filtration, additives, pumps, equipment, and electricity and the total gets to be lots. For that money I get 16 cubic feet of water to decorate. I really want what I want. I spend a lot of time mixing my colors and species just right. My frags are a small portion of the total hobby expense.

Is it possible the market is there to satisfy us both? If it’s not that important to you, there is a cornucopia of great corals with great colors out there. Heck, my favorite coral is my old friend the purple stylo. On the margins though there are a few corals out there that have a little more going for them in ways that some of us want. I’m willing to pay more, sometimes quite a bit more when something is unique and adds something to my collection. Why get upset that I can get that if you’re happy with the alternative?

If you’re not happy with the alternative however, you’re saying you do in fact value and prize the frag you have your eye on. You just don’t like having to pay to get it. Is it really surprising someone who values it enough to fork over the money is going to get it instead? Would either of us be better off if the quality vendors who keep bringing this variety to market lost interest in finding great frags because they can’t sell them for a premium?

You do realize that many of those $500 frags are just common torts and millepora, right? Do you truly believe that the first colony of RR Pink Floyd was the only one in the Ocean?

Everyone has their own, renamed, variant of just about everything out there. What becomes irritating is when it becomes hard to find these corals for affordable prices because everyone decided to renamed them and resell them for 10 times too much.

 

[Servillius]

Once I decide to buy, several factors come into play. First and foremost, I won't buy from an unknown seller. Second, I won't buy a frag that is so small that it couldn't handle me sneezing near the tank.

There is a beach bum montipora frag for sale, here, that is so small that I mistook the "mother colony"'as the frag for sale. That's insulting.

If my LFS can do it, so can others. There just isn't any other way around that unless he's selling crack around back to keep his place afloat.

As far as support goes, there isn't much more they can do if not come to your house and tell you why their frag is stn in your tank. Advice can be had, readily, here online.

I totally agree some vendors are terrible and are trying to ride on the coattails of those who put in the hard work.

I also find some great deals on growouts at my LFS on occasion and I go there regularly even when his prices are a bit higher than online because his support is valuable.

All coral prices drop over time. Your local selling you a few grow out frags of nice corals is an absolutely legitimate part of satisfying the market.

If your beef is with disreputable sellers selling chopped up frags they can barely keep alive you’ll get no argument from me. Heck, I’m not trying to argue at all.

It’s just not fair to suggest that a buyer that wants something for $500 is misguided because you don’t like the price and it’s not fair to suggest there is anything wrong with charging a premium for the best pieces if you do the work of bringing them to market. Selling expensive frags in some ways offsets the cost of maintaining the cheap ones. In a sense, we’re both helping each other by buying what we want. Let’s let everyone enjoy the hobby as a hobby; their own way.

 

[Servillius]

You do realize that many of those $500 frags are just common torts and millepora, right? Do you truly believe that the first colony of RR Pink Floyd was the only one in the Ocean?

Everyone has their own, renamed, variant of just about everything out there. What becomes irritating is when it becomes hard to find these corals for affordable prices because everyone decided to renamed them and resell them for 10 times too much.

I absolutely realize this. Sadly however the ocean is large and I have a day job. I let other people pick through it and when they find something I want, I pay them for it. When I’ve got a beautiful colony that makes me happy and doesn’t look like my other torts should I dismiss it’s aesthetics simply because there are other torts in the ocean?

 

[vertigo01]

Sorry, but I have to disagree completely with this. If you need to sell a nib for $500 to turn a profit, then YOU need to be in a different business.

My LFS has designer corals and sells them at a FRACTION of the price that hombres here are selling them at. Like JF fox flame for $50 and Orange Passion for $50. Got me a RMF acid trip for $24 the other day.

I can't stand the attitude that makes us buyers seem like ignorant pricks that are picking on the poor sellers just trying to make ends meet.

X100.