Japanese Deepwater Zoanthids.

[FishLipz]

While I do agree that this topic of putting stupid names on something that have nothing to do with a specimen is VERY often covered, we do have over 12000 members on here and they are not always salty dogs like some of us. While you could google or whatever, this forum exists as a place to come for info on the hobby and making the point again doesn't hurt. Besides, if I were a newbe I'd like to find a thread that was started in my lifetime. If it doesn't interest somebody, just move on. There is more than enough stuff on here to read.

These opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinions of the management, sponsors or yada, yada, yada! :tongue:


Anyway, if people would learn to stop buying hype and start buying corals because they like them instead of getting to say "I got the latest greatest and you don't. I can't wait until this booger grows big enough so I can sell it too" , we would be alot better off. I can think of a few recent "gotta have" pieces I wouldn't buy no matter how rare or unique they are. They are just plain UGLY in my opinion. Bottom line is unfortunately color costs money in this hobby. Once someone picks up a nice piece, there is money to be made and if hype can drive up demand then price goes up with it. It's inevitable.

 

[Speg]

Please explain the tactic? Specifically how calling something Japanese and Deep-Water is better marketing than Tongan Wildfire Zoa (not in terms of local, but how something labeled Japan deep water is inherently superior (marketing wise) to something labeled as Tongan with a name attached)

It's a tactic because actually obtaining REAL zoanthids from Japan are almost impossible to get. By saying that you're somehow able to obtain them, when nobody else can, is a marketing tool to put yourself in a niche group. What will ultimately happen? Those buyers will take the coral and sell them as "Japanese deep water zoanthids" and more and more confusion/missinformation will taint people in the hobby.

Honestly, if you guys have read this information 10000 times then fine. Does it hurt to allow a thread like this to pop up again because it IS relevant? If you've seen it a bunch then move on to the kraken thread thanks fellas.

 

[Speg]

While I do agree that this topic of putting stupid names on something that have nothing to do with a specimen is VERY often covered, we do have over 12000 members on here and they are not always salty dogs like some of us. While you could google or whatever, this forum exists as a place to come for info on the hobby and making the point again doesn't hurt. Besides, if I were a newbe I'd like to find a thread that was started in my lifetime. If it doesn't interest somebody, just move on. There is more than enough stuff on here to read.

These opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinions of the management, sponsors or yada, yada, yada! :tongue:


Anyway, if people would learn to stop buying hype and start buying corals because they like them instead of getting to say "I got the latest greatest and you don't. I can't wait until this booger grows big enough so I can sell it too" , we would be alot better off. I can think of a few recent "gotta have" pieces I wouldn't buy no matter how rare or unique they are. They are just plain UGLY in my opinion. Bottom line is unfortunately color costs money in this hobby. Once someone picks up a nice piece, there is money to be made and if hype can drive up demand then price goes up with it. It's inevitable.

Hype sells...always will sale! I agree though, the coral should sell itself and it shouldn't require some fancy name attached. I personally buy coral for the look of the piece rather than the name (mostly). Although, a piece has tempted me more to purchase because of a "Tyree" name added on because I feel the coral will become more valuable....that being said, the reason I brought up a topic that has apparently been "beaten to death" is because this tactic is still very much in use and I wanted to do what was right and counter that marketing approach with real information.

This is a huge website full of information and sometimes digging up the past isn't as useful as bringing it up in a new light--that's all I did--it's what ton of people do every day in research.

I have been out of the hobby for a couple years before my wife recently got me back into it. I personally wasn't aware of the whole Japanese zoa story, but because of this link and how it was recently "forced" to be brought up, I am more aware. I was also talking to a mod last night who wasn't aware of it either. If two people got some information from it then that was information well served. I appreciate the person who recently reposted the link to allow me, and others, to see the truth.

 

[ronnie]

I'm with you Speg - I've been back into the hobby for almost 3 years, after a hiatus from moving. I'd not heard or read anything on it either, so I was rather surprised when I read that link. Especially surprised at the photo taker - given the circumstances. So there is three people that have learned something.

Is there a set number of people that have to learn something before threads become useful?

 

[Speg]

I'm with you Speg - I've been back into the hobby for almost 3 years, after a hiatus from moving. I'd not heard or read anything on it either, so I was rather surprised when I read that link. Especially surprised at the photo taker - given the circumstances. So there is three people that have learned something.

Is there a set number of people that have to learn something before threads become useful?

Thanks Ronnie,
There are a lot of people who look at these threads without ever singing in or singing up to R2R (yeah, it's unfortunate)...they also may never post on here telling us that the information was actually helpful....but I am willing to bet that if 3 people were helped, at least 10 times that read the information from the link and learned something.

 

[ronnie]

I actually had a nice long reply typed out last night, and then when I hit reply, it said the thread was locked.....

I'm glad Troylee opened it back up for us - these things really should be discussed, even if it makes sellers look less than credible. R2R is a great place - I much prefer over other boards for various reasons.

I just don't think we can have too much info on subjects like this. When the J word drops off google and sellers/vendors no longer use/misuse it, then we can close this thread!

 

[Speg]

Maybe these types of subjects should be continued to be discussed until finally enough people know to make a difference. It's better than just saying that the topic has been beaten to death and lets forget about it and move on.

I recently went to MACNA in Orlando; a very reputable seller was there and he had a rock of fruit loop zoanthids that I wanted.
I said "Are those fruit loops?"
He replied "Yep, they're from Japan; they're a deep water zoa"

I still love the fruit loops..but I don't appreciate the missinformation. I like learning about the hobby and not learning about made up stories, rumors, etc.

My brother ended up going to MACNA with me as well.. he purchased two different sets of zoanthids from this same reputable seller and was told that they're "Japanese deepwater zoanthids"..... when my brother calls me to talk about his coral, he always says "my deep water zoas are doing good".

Is it hard to see how this can make a lot of confusion within the hobby when people DON'T know the truth?

 

[octoberfest]

I'm not saying that this is always the case but sometimes the vendors are limited to what the wholesalers tell them. Not specifically with zoanthids but just about any coral. If you order from a wholesaler and they tell you that "X" coral came from "X" island or "X" country then you have to hope they're being honest with you. If you're a vendor and you get an order in that says, "Australian Acro" and the vendor actually sends you an Acro from Fiji you could end up selling acros and advertising them from Australia even though they're not. I'm sure people can pick this apart but hopefully what I said made sense. I'm not defending anyone that has false advertising all I'm saying is that its not always the vendor that is doing this yet they're the ones that can look bad.

 

[ronnie]

Agreed octoberfest. But a little education on the vendor's part seems to be pertinent - A. If they are legit corals from Japan, then they paid an arm and a leg for them due to fees from collection all the way to export B. If they are exported illegally, I wouldn't want to either, sell or buy, these coral. I especially wouldn't advertise them as Japanese if I even had an inkling that they were collected/exported illegally. I surely wouldn't expect to be in business long if I were to continue selling either black market coral or incorrectly named coral.

If "A" is the case, then I (if I were the seller) would be showing the paperwork all over the place to keep both my name and the corals name clean and clear of any questionable actions.

 

[Bongo Shrimp]

I'm not saying that this is always the case but sometimes the vendors are limited to what the wholesalers tell them. Not specifically with zoanthids but just about any coral. If you order from a wholesaler and they tell you that "X" coral came from "X" island or "X" country then you have to hope they're being honest with you. If you're a vendor and you get an order in that says, "Australian Acro" and the vendor actually sends you an Acro from Fiji you could end up selling acros and advertising them from Australia even though they're not. I'm sure people can pick this apart but hopefully what I said made sense. I'm not defending anyone that has false advertising all I'm saying is that its not always the vendor that is doing this yet they're the ones that can look bad.

I agree too. This happens at my LFS all the time. I come in, see a coral labeled as A and I say oh thats actually B and they oh we didn't know, that's what the wholesaler called it.

But if you are claiming to be buying legally from somewhere in japan and having the corals shipped to you from japan, you really should have no problem providing proof that they really came from japan. Where there's a will there's a way with this stuff. And if you COULD prove they came from japan, you might be able to get away with selling them for more money because they are actually something more unusual than your typical zoanthid from indonesia.

 

[Speg]

Everybody makes some good points!

I know that it's not always the vendor's intentions to give us false information; they probably just don't know the facts, just like how I was unaware of this information until last night. This is why I didn't bother using any vendor's names. I'm not really putting the blame on any vendor, but I am saying that this is useful information for US (hobbyists) to know. That's all...the last posting was almost 3 years old, so it was really time for a refresher course on the subject.

 

[Troylee]

Great job guys.... Glad the thread is heading in the right direction...

 

[Speg]

Great job guys.... Glad the thread is heading in the right direction...

I think it took your help for it to do so--thanks

 

[firereef]

Another good guy to talk to is zoacollector. Really cool guy and he will tell you about the deepwater bs. Very knowledgeable when it comes to Zoas and knows all about the bs hype that we hear day in day out. He told me that Zoas are found in the shallow rather than deep. Well in Hawaii that is. Don't know how it is in japan...

 

[BlueWaterTropicals]

You can get Japanese corals, just not from Japan in the US. Trade agreements do not allow us to buy direct from Japan. That DOES NOT mean Japan doesn't export coral, or that Japanese corals are illegal. The US does NOT dictate Japanese policy. For example, here is a link to a Japanese wholesaler... ?????????? .... So its illegal to buy Japanese corals direct from Japan because we cannot get CITES permits here for Japanese corals, but its perfectly legal to buy them from another country which is one reason why they fetch a higher price tag, they just simply cost more, shipping from from Japan to wholesaler in another country then shipped to here. Its just a loophole in the system.

As for Deepwater corals, the reason why they are higher priced and usually better colored is because in countries like Indonesia, they do not use scuba gear typically, they free dive. Very few divers can survive the deepwater dives which is why they fetch a higher price tag. The term "deepwater" has translated over to other countries wether they use scuba gear or not.

This also brings back up the whole "Acan Maxima" thing... AIMS says they're only found in the Middleeast, but the ICUN lists them as Native there but their range starts off saying "Indo-West Pacific" which is Indonesia etc.... Acanthastrea maxima

 

[Troylee]

out of curiosity what is considered deep water??? meaning depth...20ft, 30ft etc??? im wandering what kind of light penetrates that kind of depth, i have never dove so i have no clue lol.....

 

[BlueWaterTropicals]

out of curiosity what is considered deep water??? meaning depth...20ft, 30ft etc??? im wandering what kind of light penetrates that kind of depth, i have never dove so i have no clue lol.....

If I remember correcty, I think its 30m.

 

[Speg]

According to the article, "deep water" zoanthids are just regular brown or green zoas. You wouldn't get the vibrant colors of most claimed "deep water zoanthids" if they were actually 30 meters deep.

I think that Blue Water Tropicals actually posted a link at one point of a researchers zoa photos from Japan...those zoas were "deep water" and were pretty regular/ugly as far as most zoas go in the hobby today.

 

[BlueWaterTropicals]

According to the article, "deep water" zoanthids are just regular brown or green zoas. You wouldn't get the vibrant colors of most claimed "deep water zoanthids" if they were actually 30 meters deep.

I think that Blue Water Tropicals actually posted a link at one point of a researchers zoa photos from Japan...those zoas were "deep water" and were pretty regular/ugly as far as most zoas go in the hobby today.

Shallow water Zoas also come in browns and greens.

 

[Speg]

Shallow water Zoas also come in browns and greens.

That's true..but deep water zoanthids don't come in the fancy colors..that's the point being made