Japanese Deepwater Zoanthids.

[BlueWaterTropicals]

That's true..but deep water zoanthids don't come in the fancy colors..that's the point being made

Of course they do. If the shallow water Zoa's were the only ones that are colored nice, then there wouldn't be any left. The shallow water stuff is the easiest to collect. Which why you can get some never seen before colors from the deepwater corals.

For example... Torch corals at 10m deep, turns brown because of too much light at 30ms deep they turn metallic green.

 

[Ian]

This isn't to stir up ish but in another thread you mentioned that you had paperwork stating that the 'deepwater Japanese zoas' did, in fact, come from Japan.

We have the paperwork on them from HK.

Other than a wholesaler list stating 'Japanese deepwater zoanthids' can you share the CITES paperwork that states that these corals were collected in Japan and legally imported into the US?

You might just possess the 'end all' to this thread, otherwise, the speculation will continue.

 

[BlueWaterTropicals]

This isn't to stir up ish but in another thread you mentioned that you had paperwork stating that the 'deepwater Japanese zoas' did, in fact, come from Japan.



Other than a wholesaler list stating 'Japanese deepwater zoanthids' can you share the CITES paperwork that states that these corals were collected in Japan and legally imported into the US?

You might just possess the 'end all' to this thread, otherwise, the speculation will continue.

Hong Kong is part of China, not Japan.


EDIT: Thats just it, most of these people are speculating, most have never been to Indo and seen the coral Farms and that side of the industry or know anything about it. They just know what somebody somewhere wrote or said about it and take it as gospil. Its a great big world out there that most people know nothing about. The US is not the only country that imports corals.

 

[BlueWaterTropicals]

My final thoughts on this topic...

Since we have never seen any of the colorations as the "Japanese deepwater Zoa's" before, show us those same colorations from somewhere else. If you can't then you this thread if a waste of time.

 

[agent462]

I'd trust Dr. Riemer who is a scientist that studies Zoanthids and works in Japan over a wholesaler that puts something on paper. I'm not saying they don't exist but the likelihood of the ones the wholesalers have being "true" are slim.

I don't blame anyone selling them as they are reselling what they are sold. It's no different than wholesalers selling Aussie that are not Aussie. It's near impossible to track it. The wholesalers are in it for profit. They have motivation to perform marketing in any way they can.

 

[agent462]

Additionally I would imagine Dr. Riemer knows a little bit about "Japanese Deepwater" since he found some 5600 meters down in the Japan Trench while using a manned submersible.

Those are like "Super Ultra A++ Japanese Deepwater" I'm trademarking that term.

 

[Ian]

Hong Kong is part of China, not Japan.

if they came out of HK, why are they labeled Japanese? This isn't directed only at you but all people selling them with the label.

How do you know that they were specifically collected in Japanese territory?

 

[Speg]

Hong Kong is part of China, not Japan.


EDIT: Thats just it, most of these people are speculating, most have never been to Indo and seen the coral Farms and that side of the industry or know anything about it. They just know what somebody somewhere wrote or said about it and take it as gospil. Its a great big world out there that most people know nothing about. The US is not the only country that imports corals.

Well, all we have is what is brought to the table as proof/evidence. This link and the research within it is our source of proof at the moment. If you could show us something that proves his research is flawed, then that would really help this entire debate. The evidence we have that suggests that most of what we think to be "Japanese deep water zoanthids" are in fact not and that evidence comes from a researcher who is actually allowed to do scuba dive in Japan's waters.

Please don't think this is an attack at you or your company; this is just a quest for the truth and an attempt to give out some knowledge to people who were not already aware of this information.

If you CAN show us information that supports your argument, then please help us I personally can't show you where these zoanthids did come from; I can tell you that in my experience zoanthids (and other coral) seem to color up better/brighter under higher light. I can't prove anything with this personal experience though.

 

[ronnie]

My final thoughts on this topic...

Since we have never seen any of the colorations as the "Japanese deepwater Zoa's" before, show us those same colorations from somewhere else. If you can't then you this thread if a waste of time.

It really isn't important to show that we can get these zoas from somewhere else. The earth is 3/4 water - that is a big bowl of water. To say that a certain zoa is only available from Japan, and from deep waters, seems pretty shallow (pun intended). It is important to be able to show that a seller got them from Japan. That is the de facto of this entire thread. The origination of a "true" Japanese Deepwater zoa. Who is to say these are really from Japan, but were collected in shallow waters? What then? Japanese Shallow water zoas?

 

[ronnie]

The important thing is for people to be 100 percent honest - and that has to start at the collector who goes out on his boat and is collecting these corals.

 

[Bongo Shrimp]

My final thoughts on this topic...

Since we have never seen any of the colorations as the "Japanese deepwater Zoa's" before, show us those same colorations from somewhere else. If you can't then you this thread if a waste of time.

Here's the problem with this statement- No one has proven where the colorations you speak of have come from. No one has proven they came from japan, and no one has proven that they came from anywhere else. Just because they've had the name "japanese deepwater zoanthids" ever since we can remember doesn't mean they really came from japan.

BTW next time I get ahold of some alleged "Japanese Deepwater Zoanthids", I'm going to sell them under the name "Japanese Shallowwater Zoanthids". :haha:

 

[thewackyreefer]

How does one expect a retailer to "prove" they came from Japan? It sounds like there are ways to get zoas originating in Japan other than having them shipped directly from there. Other than going by what they're being told wouldn't one physically have to dive with a GPS equipped camera and record the whole collection and shipping process? Like many others have said, if you don't like the piece or trust the retailer, don't freakin buy it. And, might I add the whole "Japanese Deepwater" craze is dead, like this horse.

 

[Speg]

How does one expect a retailer to "prove" they came from Japan? It sounds like there are ways to get zoas originating in Japan other than having them shipped directly from there. Other than going by what they're being told wouldn't one physically have to dive with a GPS equipped camera and record the whole collection and shipping process? Like many others have said, if you don't like the piece or trust the retailer, don't freakin buy it. And, might I add the whole "Japanese Deepwater" craze is dead, like this horse.

This isn't meant to be a thread attacking a seller so please don't take it as such or suggest as such.

Also, I'm sorry your horse is dead...poor lil guy :'( this may be old news to you, but it's not old to everyone, please don't just shove it aside as if it's no longer relevant because we've shown that there are a few people who are interested in the topic

The vendor who was talking about this subject did come and ask us to prove that these came from other waters...the return comment was for the seller to prove that they came from Japan--that's all

 

[Speg]

Another interesting link.

5 Reasons NOT to Buy “Japanese” Corals

"Recently the craze has been deepwater Japanese zoanthids. The large majority are neither from Japan or collected in deepwater. If you see a retailer using the word Japanese I would urge you to avoid them, or better yet–ask them for paperwork!"

 

[SDguy]

How does one expect a retailer to "prove" they came from Japan? It sounds like there are ways to get zoas originating in Japan other than having them shipped directly from there. Other than going by what they're being told wouldn't one physically have to dive with a GPS equipped camera and record the whole collection and shipping process? Like many others have said, if you don't like the piece or trust the retailer, don't freakin buy it. And, might I add the whole "Japanese Deepwater" craze is dead, like this horse.

1. Then it shouldn't be an emphatic selling point of the coral. When was the last time you saw any for sale thread title with an Indonesian location listed in it?

2. The "if you don't like it, move on" argument can be used for anything and everything. It's moot. This is a public forum, with very public sales and transactions. Expect pertinent and topical public input, good or bad.

 

[glassbox-design]

Hi all,

Eric here from GBD. A few of you pointed this thread out to me and I'd like to offer some clarification on a few items.

• 
  It is illegal to export scleractinia from Japan. That is Japanese law. Subsequently it is enforceable in the U.S. per the Lacey Act.

USFW considers scleractinia to also be "coral rock". After speaking with their officers, they provided me with the following definition. [This interpretation is also consistent with regulations in Japan.]

"Coral rock is defined as hard consolidated material greater than 3cm in diameter, formed of fragments of dead coral, which may contain cemented sand, coralline algae and other sedimentary rocks. Coral rock includes live rock and substrate."

• It is not illegal to buy, sell, and trade Japanese coral in Japan. There are however limitations and paperwork that must be provided when selling coral across Prefectures.

Hope this helps.

 

[ronnie]

Thanks Eric. Does that mean it is unequivocally illegal to sell Japanese coral regardless anywhere except Japan?

But are zoanthids included in that subsection? They aren't hard coral - but would the rock they are attached to (if so) included?

 

[Speg]

Thanks Eric. Does that mean it is unequivocally illegal to sell Japanese coral regardless anywhere except Japan?

But are zoanthids included in that subsection? They aren't hard coral - but would the rock they are attached to (if so) included?

I can't really think of anything that zoanthids would be growing on other than rock or the skeletons of coral....maybe some really hard macro algae?

 

[Wy Renegade]

My final thoughts on this topic...

Since we have never seen any of the colorations as the "Japanese deepwater Zoa's" before, show us those same colorations from somewhere else. If you can't then you this thread if a waste of time.

http://bluewatertropicals.com/bwtimages/ec33/1.jpg

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...l 2010/Zoas and Palys/OrangePE28April2010.jpg

Didn't work quite the way I wanted, but I think you can get the idea anyway.

FYI
https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/zo...eepwaters-distinguishing-characteristics.html

 

[Troylee]

Lol.... Nothing else to say....^^^^^