Jay I’m wondering if you believe Aquabiomics testing validity

[brandon429]

Do you believe AB for-charge testing is a way to identify presence of uronema in a reef tank?

one drop of water, or a few, a couple swabs representing .0001% of a reef tanks biome is valid? How are we ensured the other unsampled portions don’t have the pathogen?

I noticed that paying Eli/aquabiomics for disease control testing isn’t in your stickies list, wondering why not? He’s been part of macna talks, a TED talk soon I’ll bet when the momentum builds enough by trained buyers, why isnt his testing part of the staple control systems taught to readers here? Curious on your take because I don’t think you’d ever advise bunk science to the masses, and because you do what you do without charge so the motivation is clean science

and your results
They’re the best on the web/

I noticed you get your results for other people’s disease control without having to refer them to dna testing startups, can you see a migration change where referring readers to AB testing will help refine your disease protocols?

 

[brandon429]

Its patently amazing to me that Eli is consulted for disease control yet he works 0% of live time help threads for other people’s tanks


thats shocking to me, no work history needed but is now consulted for identifying fish disease for charge by hundreds / maybe thousands of reefers

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Do you believe AB for-charge testing is a way to identify presence of uronema in a reef tank?

one drop of water, or a few, a couple swabs representing .0001% of a reef tanks biome is valid? How are we ensured the other unsampled portions don’t have the pathogen?

I noticed that paying Eli/aquabiomics for disease control testing isn’t in your stickies list, wondering why not? He’s been part of macna talks, a TED talk soon I’ll bet when the momentum builds enough by trained buyers, why isnt his testing part of the staple control systems taught to readers here? Curious on your tank because I don’t think you’d ever advise bunk science to the masses, and because you do what you do without charge so the motivation is clean science

and your results
They’re the best on the web/

I noticed you get your results for other people’s disease control without having to refer them to dna testing startups, can you see a migration change where referring readers to AB testing will help refine your disease protocols

I haven't used their services, and don't know enough about the results they get. I do think it may have a major benefit for sampling presence/absence of some fish pathogens.

Their eDNA testing should be comprehensive, even with a small water volume for the test. It is used in natural systems to infer the presence of invasive species, and the ratio of water volume to test volume is even less in those cases.

This is like when ICP first came out - I didn't have much to say until after I began using the process, and then had multiple companies running the same samples for comparison.

In this case, now that I'm retired, I won't have the ability to pay to have AB tests done myself, I'll have to try and evaluate the process from other people's results.

Regarding testing for Uronema, back in the 1980's, I would just hang a piece of smelt in a tank overnight and look at it under the microscope the next morning to see Uronema (grin).

I'm not confident that this method will have any application for identifying bacterial fish diseases. Almost all of the bacteria that causes fish diseases are ubiquitous - found in all/most aquariums. Even Mycobacteria sp. are that way - the old joke is that if you tested a tank and didn't find Myco, try again, you just didn't look hard enough (grin).


Jay

 

[brandon429]

That's so helpful thank you for the insight

 

[brandon429]

Second question

Asking because this option isn't in your biosecurity article.

Is DNA testing right now solid enough you can recommend in good faith skipping fallow and observation preps for substrates added to a reef tank if a test shows negative for fish pathogens?

Meaning if someone gets an aquabiomics test and it shows no uronema, they can add those materials right into their diverse reef with low probability of cross contam?

I'm wanting to get a fair picture of the scope of DNA testing utility from someone who can't benefit from the sales angle, but someone whose writings are applied by thousands of people wanting the best reef tank longevity

*could we take substrate from a known uronema infection tank, run it through the tests, and add it to another uninfected system if Eli's report comes back neg/uronema?

scope of utility in DNA testing as related to fish disease management is what I'm trying to absorb. so far it seems the application rate is very low confidence regarding fish disease management utility. the charge for the service is certainly, 100% not reflective of low confidence utility.

 

[areefer01]

@brandon429 have you used the eDNA or microbiome services? I've noticed a few posts here and there talking about how it is snake oil so curious how you came to that conclusion yet asking some pretty basic questions on how it works. It is like you are fishing for something but I can't figure out what just yet.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

@brandon429 have you used the eDNA or microbiome services? I've noticed a few posts here and there talking about how it is snake oil so curious how you came to that conclusion yet asking some pretty basic questions on how it works. It is like you are fishing for something but I can't figure out what just yet.

To be fair, it is pretty complicated to fully understand everything about it as in how and why it works. I'm not on either side here btw but I do see a lot of people saying it's snake oil without really being able to explain why. As for me, I'm a gamblin' man! Haha

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Second question

Asking because this option isn't in your biosecurity article.

Is DNA testing right now solid enough you can recommend in good faith skipping fallow and observation preps for substrates added to a reef tank if a test shows negative for fish pathogens?

Meaning if someone gets an aquabiomics test and it shows no uronema, they can add those materials right into their diverse reef with low probability of cross contam?

I'm wanting to get a fair picture of the scope of DNA testing utility from someone who can't benefit from the sales angle, but someone whose writings are applied by thousands of people wanting the best reef tank longevity

*could we take substrate from a known uronema infection tank, run it through the tests, and add it to another uninfected system if Eli's report comes back neg/uronema?

scope of utility in DNA testing as related to fish disease management is what I'm trying to absorb. so far it seems the application rate is very low confidence regarding fish disease management utility. the charge for the service is certainly, 100% not reflective of low confidence utility.

Well, same issue - I haven't used the service myself, nor have I seen any reports from others run on multiple tanks, so I have to withhold judgement.

I wish I was still in charge of an operating budget, I'd set up for some sampling for sure (grin).

I'll ask the public aquarium community to see if anyone out there is using this process. Up until recently, we had to send tissue out for culture and that took up to 6 weeks.

Jay

 

[areefer01]

Well, same issue - I haven't used the service myself, nor have I seen any reports from others run on multiple tanks, so I have to withhold judgement.

Good afternoon Jay. Just wanted to say that your post(s) on this subject is something that we as hobbyist should take an example from when replying in some threads. In both of your posts you clearly state that you haven't used the service from aquabiomics first and foremost. Then followed up with some additional comments from your knowledge and experience without nay saying the service with negativity. It was balanced.

Just wanted to say that I found the posts well done. Thanks.

 

[MnFish1]

@Jay Hemdal - it is my experience/knowledge that uronema is found in many tanks - and whether a fallow period is used or not makes no difference (much like mycobacteria). is that true or an old 'wives tale'? I have used Eli's product and had no pathogens identified (and have also had no parasitic diseases for years)

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Sounds like Eli's already got it made for life at this point....so many people have already used their service!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal - it is my experience/knowledge that uronema is found in many tanks - and whether a fallow period is used or not makes no difference (much like mycobacteria). is that true or an old 'wives tale'? I have used Eli's product and had no pathogens identified (and have also had no parasitic diseases for years)

Yes, Uronema is found in many/most mature aquariums without causing overt infections in the resident fish. These protozoans normally feed on bacteria.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Good afternoon Jay. Just wanted to say that your post(s) on this subject is something that we as hobbyist should take an example from when replying in some threads. In both of your posts you clearly state that you haven't used the service from aquabiomics first and foremost. Then followed up with some additional comments from your knowledge and experience without nay saying the service with negativity. It was balanced.

Just wanted to say that I found the posts well done. Thanks.

I asked on a public aquarium listserve today, but nobody has gotten back to me with firsthand experience.

Jay