Labout's recovery options

[dmsc2fs]

Hey folks,

I am looking for thoughts on what to try next to bring this wrasse back. I have had him since December and he has had zero issues since. My tank has been running without any new additions for a number of months. I recently added a few fish that had been fully QT from a QT vendor. The new fish had a hard go of it due to UPS shipping delays. As part of that shipment I lost a wrasse and a tang. The other fish looked great with the exception of one mandarin that had damage to the bone that is sticking out of the side of head next to his gill. It was white and abrased.

Over the next few days that mandarin starting loosing it's tail. I was trying to monitor it but he vanished for 3 days. When I finally found him again the entire tail had eroded away and he was lethargic. I moved him into a hospital tank and here is the protocol I decided to throw at it with the conclusion that the fin rot was due to ammonia burn and an infection had set in.

June 22 - Recommended dosage for Metroplex (1 scoop), KanaPlex, Nitrofurazone (.18g), Vita chem, Reef Flux
June 23 - Recommended dosage for Nitrofurazone (.18 g) & Stress Guard
June 24 - 25% Water change and Recommended dosage for Metroplex (1 scoop), KanaPlex, Nitrofurazone (.18 g)& Stress Guard
June 25 - Recommended dosage for Nitrofurazone
June 26 - Recommended dosage for Metroplex (1 scoop), KanaPlex, Nitrofurazone (.18g), Vita chem & Stress Guard
June 27 - Recommended dosage for Nitrofurazone - added Labout's, air stone, Prazy Pro and Metroplex (1 scoop)
June 28 - 25% Water change and recommended dosage for Metroplex (1 scoop), KanaPlex, Nitrofurazone (.18g) & Stress Guard
June 29 - Recommended dosage for Nitrofurazone & Stress Guard

June 30 - 25% Water change and use recommended dosage for Metroplex (1 scoop) & Furan-2 & Vita chem
July 1 - Recommended dosage for Nitrofurazone
July 2 - 25% Water change and use recommended dosage for Metroplex (1 scoop) & Furan-2 & Stress Guard
July 3 - Recommended dosage for Nitrofurazone
July 4 - 25% Water change and use recommended dosage for Metroplex (1 scoop) & Furan-2

By June 24th the mandarin was swimming around and hunting and active the same as it was when it arrived and like the other mandarin it shipped with. All other fish from that order are showing zero signs of issues but they went into the DT with the Labout's.

On June 27 the Labout's was acting normal in the morning and by mid day I found him on the bottom breathing heavy and not moving. A few hours before this I had added 9 ml of Muriatic acid to the sump. This is a 130gallon system so my first thought was with 9ml of Muriatic going in the sump there was zero chance that it could of made it through my socks, my fuge, and back into the main tank without enough dilution that it could have any effect. I quickly moved him into my frag tank that maintains the same parameters as the DT as a quicker solution to running carbon, or water change, etc.

From here I didn't see any changes over the next few hours and my next thought was a possible infection that was spread from the mandarin. I decided to put him into the same hospital tank as the mandarin. Since I had not dosed the Nitrofurazone for that day yet I decided to add the wrasse into that tank and dose it with Nitro and Metro. I know this is an extra dose of Metro but the instructions for Metro say to use 1-2 scoops per 10G and I am running 1 scoops so I didn't expect any issues. I also decided to add PrazyPro to the hospital tank instead of a freshwater dip for the Labout's thinking this would have no effect on the Mandarin and this was the least stress on the Labout's in case it was flukes.

I haven't seen much of a change in the Labout's and as of today it will be +2 days of Nitrofurazone and Metro and +1 days of KanaPlex. I would expect to see a bit more life returning to him if it was a bacteria infection I think?

I have noticed what appears to be some clouding of the eyes but I have to admit with the water stained yellow from the Nitrofurazone and it being early in the morning it could be mucus from his night time sack.

I am debating what to do next and I am thinking two options. 1. maintain the course with him in the hospital tank and continue running the antibiotic treatments. 2. Move him into a Metheleyn Blue dip for 1/2 hour and from that into a QT tank and start copper for velvet. I'm open to any thoughts? I'm leaning towards 2 thinking that some of the areas on the body could be velvet and i'm not sure what other options I have.

Of course I also understand that the outcome of this is now going to drive what I do next with my Mandarin since it has now spent a few days in the hospital tank with the Labout's.

 

[dmsc2fs]

Parameters

Red Sea:
Nitrate: 2ppm
Phosphate: .04

Hannah:
Calcium: 419
ALK: 12.5
Salinity: 1.026

Salifert:
Mag: 1335

Prope:
PH: 7.97

 

[vetteguy53081]

From what you describe, in quarantine treatment is seachem neoplex

 

[dmsc2fs]

From what you describe, in quarantine treatment is seachem neoplex

I'm not against adding neomycin sulfate. Are you suggesting I have been treating the mandarin with the wrong selection of med's and should stop the current course and run a course of neomycin, or add to the current protocol?

I'm not an expert at this and am more than happy to admit I have the wrong approach. I also noticed that when I use a flashlight I see the Labout's tracking it with his eye. I believe I am seeing more eye movement out of him indicating possibly he is less lethargic. I have not been able to get him to eat since the 27th.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hey folks,

I am looking for thoughts on what to try next to bring this wrasse back. I have had him since December and he has had zero issues since. My tank has been running without any new additions for a number of months. I recently added a few fish that had been fully QT from a QT vendor. The new fish had a hard go of it due to UPS shipping delays. As part of that shipment I lost a wrasse and a tang. The other fish looked great with the exception of one mandarin that had damage to the bone that is sticking out of the side of head next to his gill. It was white and abrased.

Over the next few days that mandarin starting loosing it's tail. I was trying to monitor it but he vanished for 3 days. When I finally found him again the entire tail had eroded away and he was lethargic. I moved him into a hospital tank and here is the protocol I decided to throw at it with the conclusion that the fin rot was due to ammonia burn and an infection had set in.

June 22 - Recommended dosage for Metroplex (1 scoop), KanaPlex, Nitrofurazone (.18g), Vita chem, Reef Flux
June 23 - Recommended dosage for Nitrofurazone (.18 g) & Stress Guard
June 24 - 25% Water change and Recommended dosage for Metroplex (1 scoop), KanaPlex, Nitrofurazone (.18 g)& Stress Guard
June 25 - Recommended dosage for Nitrofurazone
June 26 - Recommended dosage for Metroplex (1 scoop), KanaPlex, Nitrofurazone (.18g), Vita chem & Stress Guard
June 27 - Recommended dosage for Nitrofurazone - added Labout's, air stone, Prazy Pro and Metroplex (1 scoop)
June 28 - 25% Water change and recommended dosage for Metroplex (1 scoop), KanaPlex, Nitrofurazone (.18g) & Stress Guard
June 29 - Recommended dosage for Nitrofurazone & Stress Guard

June 30 - 25% Water change and use recommended dosage for Metroplex (1 scoop) & Furan-2 & Vita chem
July 1 - Recommended dosage for Nitrofurazone
July 2 - 25% Water change and use recommended dosage for Metroplex (1 scoop) & Furan-2 & Stress Guard
July 3 - Recommended dosage for Nitrofurazone
July 4 - 25% Water change and use recommended dosage for Metroplex (1 scoop) & Furan-2

By June 24th the mandarin was swimming around and hunting and active the same as it was when it arrived and like the other mandarin it shipped with. All other fish from that order are showing zero signs of issues but they went into the DT with the Labout's.

On June 27 the Labout's was acting normal in the morning and by mid day I found him on the bottom breathing heavy and not moving. A few hours before this I had added 9 ml of Muriatic acid to the sump. This is a 130gallon system so my first thought was with 9ml of Muriatic going in the sump there was zero chance that it could of made it through my socks, my fuge, and back into the main tank without enough dilution that it could have any effect. I quickly moved him into my frag tank that maintains the same parameters as the DT as a quicker solution to running carbon, or water change, etc.

From here I didn't see any changes over the next few hours and my next thought was a possible infection that was spread from the mandarin. I decided to put him into the same hospital tank as the mandarin. Since I had not dosed the Nitrofurazone for that day yet I decided to add the wrasse into that tank and dose it with Nitro and Metro. I know this is an extra dose of Metro but the instructions for Metro say to use 1-2 scoops per 10G and I am running 1 scoops so I didn't expect any issues. I also decided to add PrazyPro to the hospital tank instead of a freshwater dip for the Labout's thinking this would have no effect on the Mandarin and this was the least stress on the Labout's in case it was flukes.

I haven't seen much of a change in the Labout's and as of today it will be +2 days of Nitrofurazone and Metro and +1 days of KanaPlex. I would expect to see a bit more life returning to him if it was a bacteria infection I think?

I have noticed what appears to be some clouding of the eyes but I have to admit with the water stained yellow from the Nitrofurazone and it being early in the morning it could be mucus from his night time sack.

I am debating what to do next and I am thinking two options. 1. maintain the course with him in the hospital tank and continue running the antibiotic treatments. 2. Move him into a Metheleyn Blue dip for 1/2 hour and from that into a QT tank and start copper for velvet. I'm open to any thoughts? I'm leaning towards 2 thinking that some of the areas on the body could be velvet and i'm not sure what other options I have.

Of course I also understand that the outcome of this is now going to drive what I do next with my Mandarin since it has now spent a few days in the hospital tank with the Labout's.

As I'm sure you understand, there is a lot of complicated information to unpack, and that doesn't lend itself well to remote treatment like we do here. The two basic takeaways for me is that I don't rely on metronidazole to control external protozoans and I don't treat with antibiotics unless I have a clear reason to do so.

I'm unclear of the timeline - the wrasse was doing fine from December until June? What do you think happened that started the issues? What other fish were added with the Mandarin, are they fine?

The acid is probably a red herring, but can you confirm that? Did you do pH testing before and after the addition?

I don't think this is velvet, if it were, you would notice rapid breathing in the wrasse. I can't tell you though, if the mucus is just normal nighttime mucus or if it could be Brooklynella....but then, where would that have come from?

Jay

 

[dmsc2fs]

I'm unclear of the timeline - the wrasse was doing fine from December until June? What do you think happened that started the issues? What other fish were added with the Mandarin, are they fine?

That is correct, wrasse was the first fish added and he had been eating like a horse since day one and doing great.

I added 2 Mandarin and 1 Yellow Tang. The other Mandarin is doing great as well as the Tang. They are both Biota and the tang was tiny and pail. He has increased in size about 30% and has started to take on a great yellow color. All other fish that had already been in the tank before these additions are showing now signs of anything: Blue Head Wrasse, Clownfish, 2x Zebra Bar goby, 2x Watchman Goby. Before this addition of livestock it had been months since I had added anything else. I have not added any new coral's macro algaes, or other inverts in weeks. As much as I don't want to admit it, and I am not at this conclusion quite yet, I am starting to worry that my fish that came in after QT brought something with them.

The acid is probably a red herring, but can you confirm that? Did you do pH testing before and after the addition?

Dropped from 7.81 to 7.51 and now is back to 7.73.

I don't think this is velvet, if it were, you would notice rapid breathing in the wrasse. I can't tell you though, if the mucus is just normal nighttime mucus or if it could be Brooklynella....but then, where would that have come from?

Jay

I bought these fish post QT vice running a QT protocol myself. I can't exclude the brought Brooks in with them. I have Formalin and could do a dip but I'm not sure what to do next if I do that, or after. I have a 20G QT tank that I can deploy for whatever next steps.

Here is a video as any video is better than any photo and description I think. Things I note are the slight discoloration on the top front of his head as well as just behind the gills on the right side towards the bottom it looks like possibly some slime, or something else. You can see this best at :34 I think.

 

[MnFish1]

I agree with Jay - and I'm not sure about neomycin - either - because 'what is being treated'? However - it may very well be that if there is an underlying infection - the neomycin will help. - as @vetteguy53081 I would tend to us it alone.

In any case - my GUESS is that part of this relates to the change in pH - just perhaps as a stress that made things worse in general - as compared to a 'cause'.

Another comment - lets assume there is an infection (or was) - oftentimes using more than one antibiotic at the same time is a mistake - as they can not only act synergystically together - they can also act antagonistically (or they can cause no effect against the other).

Another thing I happened to think about - why were you adding muriatic acid in the first place? Was there a really high alkalinity or pH issue? Was/is there bullying in the tank (affecting the mandarin's tail)?

As Jay said there is so much going on it's difficult to make any clear decision.

 

[dmsc2fs]

I agree with Jay - and I'm not sure about neomycin - either - because 'what is being treated'? However - it may very well be that if there is an underlying infection - the neomycin will help. - as @vetteguy53081 I would tend to us it alone.

In any case - my GUESS is that part of this relates to the change in pH - just perhaps as a stress that made things worse in general - as compared to a 'cause'.

Another comment - lets assume there is an infection (or was) - oftentimes using more than one antibiotic at the same time is a mistake - as they can not only act synergystically together - they can also act antagonistically (or they can cause no effect against the other).

I read a detailed post one time about how the three antibiotics I picked worked synergistically to cover most gram-negative and gram-positive bacteria. But, I don't want to get stuck arguing this point. I freely admit that I could have, and probably did make mistakes. Thus, I decided it's time to ask for help before trying something new since I am in territory that I am a novice and I don't wish to make more mistakes making the problem worse.

Another thing I happened to think about - why were you adding muriatic acid in the first place? Was there a really high alkalinity or pH issue? Was/is there bullying in the tank (affecting the mandarin's tail)?

Both mandarins came in rough. The second mandarin came in with some spotting/holes/tearing in it's tail but has healed without issue in my DT and has been hunting/swimming without issue. The one I mentioned at the beginning disappeared for a few days and when he came back out his tail had dissolved to the base of the tail and he was lethargic and not moving. I did not expect him to make it through the night honestly and thus I hit him with the antibiotics I did. He is doing great now.

I added the acid because I have been doing water changes every few days trying to bring my ALK down and I was becoming tired of throwing salt down the drain when everything else appears to be within normal parameters. I'm using Fritz Blue Box salt BTW so I can't contribute my increasing ALK to my salt.

As Jay said there is so much going on it's difficult to make any clear decision.

Yeah, i get that. I am sure I haven't made the correct choices either. I don't expect miracles. Just input from the brain trust and hopefully I can pull this guy through.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I read a detailed post one time about how the three antibiotics I picked worked synergistically to cover most gram-negative and gram-positive bacteria. But, I don't want to get stuck arguing this point. I freely admit that I could have, and probably did make mistakes. Thus, I decided it's time to ask for help before trying something new since I am in territory that I am a novice and I don't wish to make more mistakes making the problem worse.




Both mandarins came in rough. The second mandarin came in with some spotting/holes/tearing in it's tail but has healed without issue in my DT and has been hunting/swimming without issue. The one I mentioned at the beginning disappeared for a few days and when he came back out his tail had dissolved to the base of the tail and he was lethargic and not moving. I did not expect him to make it through the night honestly and thus I hit him with the antibiotics I did. He is doing great now.

I added the acid because I have been doing water changes every few days trying to bring my ALK down and I was becoming tired of throwing salt down the drain when everything else appears to be within normal parameters. I'm using Fritz Blue Box salt BTW so I can't contribute my increasing ALK to my salt.

Yeah, i get that. I am sure I haven't made the correct choices either. I don't expect miracles. Just input from the brain trust and hopefully I can pull this guy through.

One thing to do: I see you are measuring pH to two decimal points. Can you take some water from the tank, measure the pH be then aerate it heavily for 6 hours and measure the pH again? I want to see if there is a CO2 issue.

Jay

 

[dmsc2fs]

One thing to do: I see you are measuring pH to two decimal points. Can you take some water from the tank, measure the pH be then aerate it heavily for 6 hours and measure the pH again? I want to see if there is a CO2 issue.

Jay

I'll see what I can do. The only devices I can monitor PH with only go to 2 decimal points (Reef-Pi) or 1 decimal point (Apera SX-610).

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'll see what I can do. The only devices I can monitor PH with only go to 2 decimal points (Reef-Pi) or 1 decimal point (Apera SX-610).

Oh - so inline units...that won't work then. I'm just worried that the low pH that you are seeing is going along with a high CO2 level. That isn't the core issue, but it could be contributing....

Jay