Lion King's observations of keeping lions long term

lion king

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As my research into how long lions are being kept alive in captivity disturbed and disappointed me, I decided to post a few of my observations that has allowed me to keep them for several years or more.

Source; know your source, it is not a good idea to get any lion from a source that runs copper in their system. While possible to escape permanent organ damage if transported through very quickly, it will be more of an exception if a lion from this source lives more than a year or so. Extended antibiotic treatment also reins havoc on the internal organs, and I've seen the same decreased life span of those treated as such.

QT/observation and treatment for internal parasites and worms. It will be an exception if the lion doesn't arrive with some sort of internal parasites or worms, they are often and mostly fed diseased and dying fish along the way of their transport. Initially housing them in a qt or the 1st member of your non reef dt would be wise, as to treat with general cure or a prazi pro/metro combo. You will also need to address their unique and challenging feeding habits.

Treatment and feeding, this will actually go hand in hand. With the exception of the volitan lions, the dwarf and medium species will almost always need to be initially fed live foods. Even if you get a lion from the lfs that is eating dead food, it will likely never be enough to sustain, and almost always will be a restart when you transport them. Dwarf lions eating mysis and such from the water column, is never enough to sustain them long tern, if you are dead set on feeding them dead food only, you will need to target feed them chunks of meaty items. I have found to initially get them eating and fattened up with some live ghosties or feeder guppies then start treatment right away, to be the most effective. After 2-3 days of fattening up, dose the water column with general cure, follow directions of dosage precisely, no need to follow alternative recommendations from internet experts. If the lion does not eat live prey right away, immediately start treatment. The lion should eat the live prey in short order at least within an hour or so, if not they are likely already succumbing to internal parasites or copper poisoning, which the later will be no recovery. If you prefer to do the prazi pro/metro combo instead, the lions must be eating dead food very well, as I have found metro to not be that effective in the water column. Then feeding dead food soaked in metro daily for as long as 2 weeks. General cure has been the best method for me, as most will not be eating dead food adequately enough to get the metro into their system.

DT housing, I've found success and perceived happiness in tanks from a 40B to a 90g. I like to keep the tanks in this range to allow feeding live prey easier to contain, larger tanks get more complicated, and smaller really not recommended. If you are going to keep multiples, a 90g is an excellent choice, nice height to allow higher cliffs for perching and overall just a great multiple predator tank. The 75g is the same footprint as the 90, only not as tall. The 60g is an excellent choice as well, and could likely house 3 of the dwarf/medium lions. The dwarf and medium bodied lions end up around the same overall size in the end, with the exception of the fu being smaller, the fuzzy a little shorter, but really not much difference in real estate needs. I actually prefer the 40B to a 55g, the 55 is too thin for my taste. Also the lions will utilize the width of the tank as much as the length, and the 40B has a great balance between width and length.

Feeding: I have never seen any of the dwarf and medium bodied lions kept for much more than a year being fed a dead only diet, so please consider this among all else. As an exception I did keep a fuzzy for more than 3 years before being rehomed due to an illness on my part. It was a very challenging and dedicated operation to get a balanced substantial dead only diet to fully sustain him for long term.
 

ThunderGoose

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Great write up. I'd love to see a series of similar write ups for other groups. I'd like to know about unique challenges to different organisms, especially if they do not usually survive long term in ourtanks.

Thanks!
 

Daniel@R2R

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Great info!! Thanks so much for sharing these observations with us!
 
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This guy went into observation on Monday, the source told me he was qt'd for 5-6 weeks and treated with Metronidazole and Praziquantel. I paid a pretty penny for him and I am going to take him at his word. I really don't like to over medicate these guys, so I will just do an observation for 4 weeks. I'll check the tank carefully for signs of parasites, you can see the stringy poo easily on the bare bottom tank, if you don't see it hanging from the fish. I wont let him go off eating without being ready to move.

The sg in the bag was 1.025, anytime the sg comes in under 1.020 be ready to treat. Low sg is a common trick suppliers use to keep parasites at bay, not curing them, just keeping them at bay long enough for you to get them home. I dropped some live ghosties in about 2 hours after acclimation, and he made short order of them. Fed again tonight, and again chased them all right down. Notice the clear eyes and the fat belly. I have good expectations for this one.

014.jpg


016.jpg
 
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lion king

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This guy came from ibluewater, I was actually looking for something else, that we later concluded wouldn't be appropriate for the tank. He asked me if I would consider a yellow fuzzy, that he had one in qt. This guy does have them listed but I always considered the price too high, but I have not seen a yellow fuzzy for sale, as an actual yellow fuzzy, for like 7 years. My last yellow fuzzy was sold as a regular fuzzy, he was mostly drab and brown with just a speckling of a few spots of yellow, he was also sickly. The black foot was found by the owner of an lfs that took a day trip to the wholesalers in SoCal. He wasn't listed and the lfs owner saw him in an unmarked tank, sent me a pic, and I grabbed him. Antenattas, radiatas, mombasas, and fus pop up from time to time at a number of places, they have a very high mortality rate so most lfs wont bring them in, unless you special order one. Fuzzys and even zebras are pretty common, they many times will look drab and brown but with care will brighten up beautifully. My red fuzzy was drab, brown, and starving when I found him at an lfs. iblewater has a number of lions listed, if you are willing the price. I'll let you know in a couple of months how it goes, for a true qt the price would be worth especially if a person isn't that experienced.
 

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This guy came from ibluewater, I was actually looking for something else, that we later concluded wouldn't be appropriate for the tank. He asked me if I would consider a yellow fuzzy, that he had one in qt. This guy does have them listed but I always considered the price too high, but I have not seen a yellow fuzzy for sale, as an actual yellow fuzzy, for like 7 years. My last yellow fuzzy was sold as a regular fuzzy, he was mostly drab and brown with just a speckling of a few spots of yellow, he was also sickly. The black foot was found by the owner of an lfs that took a day trip to the wholesalers in SoCal. He wasn't listed and the lfs owner saw him in an unmarked tank, sent me a pic, and I grabbed him. Antenattas, radiatas, mombasas, and fus pop up from time to time at a number of places, they have a very high mortality rate so most lfs wont bring them in, unless you special order one. Fuzzys and even zebras are pretty common, they many times will look drab and brown but with care will brighten up beautifully. My red fuzzy was drab, brown, and starving when I found him at an lfs. iblewater has a number of lions listed, if you are willing the price. I'll let you know in a couple of months how it goes, for a true qt the price would be worth especially if a person isn't that experienced.

Are lions sensitive to copper medications?
 
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lion king

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Are lions sensitive to copper medications?

Yes, I have seen lions have seizures and die even in tanks with sub therapeutic levels.
Personally I have never seen a lion live long after copper treatment or after being kept in a system with sub therapeutic levels for any length of time.
 

Dr. Dendrostein

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As my research into how long lions are being kept alive in captivity disturbed and disappointed me, I decided to post a few of my observations that has allowed me to keep them for several years or more.

Source; know your source, it is not a good idea to get any lion from a source that runs copper in their system. While possible to escape permanent organ damage if transported through very quickly, it will be more of an exception if a lion from this source lives more than a year or so. Extended antibiotic treatment also reins havoc on the internal organs, and I've seen the same decreased life span of those treated as such.

QT/observation and treatment for internal parasites and worms. It will be an exception if the lion doesn't arrive with some sort of internal parasites or worms, they are often and mostly fed diseased and dying fish along the way of their transport. Initially housing them in a qt or the 1st member of your non reef dt would be wise, as to treat with general cure or a prazi pro/metro combo. You will also need to address their unique and challenging feeding habits.

Treatment and feeding, this will actually go hand in hand. With the exception of the volitan lions, the dwarf and medium species will almost always need to be initially fed live foods. Even if you get a lion from the lfs that is eating dead food, it will likely never be enough to sustain, and almost always will be a restart when you transport them. Dwarf lions eating mysis and such from the water column, is never enough to sustain them long tern, if you are dead set on feeding them dead food only, you will need to target feed them chunks of meaty items. I have found to initially get them eating and fattened up with some live ghosties or feeder guppies then start treatment right away, to be the most effective. After 2-3 days of fattening up, dose the water column with general cure, follow directions of dosage precisely, no need to follow alternative recommendations from internet experts. If the lion does not eat live prey right away, immediately start treatment. The lion should eat the live prey in short order at least within an hour or so, if not they are likely already succumbing to internal parasites or copper poisoning, which the later will be no recovery. If you prefer to do the prazi pro/metro combo instead, the lions must be eating dead food very well, as I have found metro to not be that effective in the water column. Then feeding dead food soaked in metro daily for as long as 2 weeks. General cure has been the best method for me, as most will not be eating dead food adequately enough to get the metro into their system.

DT housing, I've found success and perceived happiness in tanks from a 40B to a 90g. I like to keep the tanks in this range to allow feeding live prey easier to contain, larger tanks get more complicated, and smaller really not recommended. If you are going to keep multiples, a 90g is an excellent choice, nice height to allow higher cliffs for perching and overall just a great multiple predator tank. The 75g is the same footprint as the 90, only not as tall. The 60g is an excellent choice as well, and could likely house 3 of the dwarf/medium lions. The dwarf and medium bodied lions end up around the same overall size in the end, with the exception of the fu being smaller, the fuzzy a little shorter, but really not much difference in real estate needs. I actually prefer the 40B to a 55g, the 55 is too thin for my taste. Also the lions will utilize the width of the tank as much as the length, and the 40B has a great balance between width and length.

Feeding: I have never seen any of the dwarf and medium bodied lions kept for much more than a year being fed a dead only diet, so please consider this among all else. As an exception I did keep a fuzzy for more than 3 years before being rehomed due to an illness on my part. It was a very challenging and dedicated operation to get a balanced substantial dead only diet to fully sustain him for long term.
Thanks for valuable info, comrade
 

Shane808262

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Yes, I have seen lions have seizures and die even in tanks with sub therapeutic levels.
Personally I have never seen a lion live long after copper treatment or after being kept in a system with sub therapeutic levels for any length of time.
Oh no I just got a new Hawaiian green lion that I have it in a quarantine tank that I dosed copper in to treat the other fish in there with ich. What should I do?
 
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Oh no I just got a new Hawaiian green lion that I have it in a quarantine tank that I dosed copper in to treat the other fish in there with ich. What should I do?

Please do not follow my advice as absolute, but this is what I would do. Because I consider copper exposure to lions to be a death sentence, I would remove the lion. I have seen lions with ick and have seen lions succumb to ick, but lions are highly resistant to ick. A healthy lion will rarely be affected by ick, they have a thick extra slime coating, some people call this a cuticle. Healthy lions can resist the attachment of ick and shed this cuticle layer to rid itself of any attack. So as far as myself, I would risk the liln fighting off ick, than to expose them to copper.

There are alternatives to copper that I am not familiar with
 
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Oh no I just got a new Hawaiian green lion that I have it in a quarantine tank that I dosed copper in to treat the other fish in there with ich. What should I do?

I just noticed you are the one that hand caught the lion. You should really only have to kerp that lion in an observation to get him eating, and it shouldn't be necessary to medicate at all. All the issues of disease and parasites is brought on by the method of collecting, storing, and transporting.
 

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I have a dwarf fuzzy and I primarily feed her guppies and mollies(I personally breed them) and then I supplement with fresh shrimp, she'll accept pellets but that's pretty rare. I've had her for about 13 months now, she's kept with a pair of maroons, a lawnmower blenny and a snowflake eel. She is super aggressive to the point if I want to do anything in the tank I need a net to keep her away from destroying me. I definitely agree with them needing some sort of live food source. She'll also accept silversides but I'm almost positive she takes those because she knows the snowflake likes them and wants to make him mad.
 
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I have a dwarf fuzzy and I primarily feed her guppies and mollies(I personally breed them) and then I supplement with fresh shrimp, she'll accept pellets but that's pretty rare. I've had her for about 13 months now, she's kept with a pair of maroons, a lawnmower blenny and a snowflake eel. She is super aggressive to the point if I want to do anything in the tank I need a net to keep her away from destroying me. I definitely agree with them needing some sort of live food source. She'll also accept silversides but I'm almost positive she takes those because she knows the snowflake likes them and wants to make him mad.

Good point about her taking the silversides because it's what you are feeding the eel. They will do that, competing for food. People will have an easier time getting them to take dead if there's something else eating an appropriate meal. What I mean by that is chunky meats, not mysis and such floating in the water column.
 
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Can you see his belly, overfeeding can kill but underfeeding is likely a much more common cause of the quick demise of many of the little lions, and even volitans for that matter. People that rely on lions to catch food from the water column, without target feeding chunky bits, are usually surprised when their lion dies after a few months. The fact is, the lion starved, they likely need to eat more than most imagine, and they will never survive long just catching mysis and such from the water column when you feed the tank. The pics are an example of what a lions belly should look like after a proper feeding, every 2 or 3 days.
020.jpg
016.jpg
 

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Nice write up for sure.. When you say "dead food", are you referring to frozen cubes namely?. We feed our volitan frozen krill, silversides, clams that I defrost in in cup with tank water. Took few months to "train" him to eat other than ghosties... We feed him every other day and he seems to like it that way. Comes to corner when it's time like a puppy..

1564709704515685307142131851321.jpg
 

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Yes, I have seen lions have seizures and die even in tanks with sub therapeutic levels.
Personally I have never seen a lion live long after copper treatment or after being kept in a system with sub therapeutic levels for any length of time.
I only use CP (chloroquine phosphate) and GC in my quarantine protocol. I DO have copper on hand, but I truly believe that copper is a poison that you HOPE kills the parasite before the fish. CP is much safer and is much easier on the fish.

I have put multiple lions, anglers, etc through my CP/GC treatment with no losses and no loss of appetite. It also gives me a chance to stick train while they are alone. I haven't met an ambush hunter yet that I haven't stick trained. Fuzzies are the easiest, usually within 24 hours they are eating off my feeding tool.
 

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Here’s my fuzzy. Started him on guppies and ghost shrimp. After I got the powder blue, he decided to grab chunks of LRS and Rods. Are these sufficient or should I supplement any other frozen food like krill or silversides? He doubled in size since I got him, was maybe 2” max when I got him.

Tried adding the video but it would never play in the post.


93CC0503-4BB6-4CF0-B5DF-AC662CD5C8A7.png
 
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