Little to no growth and dying corals

[MrGisonni]

All your parameters are in line, just keep that going. 10% to 15% water change is fine. Perform water changes based on Nitrates. Trace elements are being provided by the all for Reef. 17 ppm NO3 is solid already. Try a little Brightwell magnesium. Get that up over 1350. Then the All for Reef should keep you nice and stable. If you tinker at all it should really be just with occasional reef roids to keep phosphates from bottoming out. Keep the current parameters where they're at and within a month you will start to see growth. Promise.

 

[Reef_puck]

Well its been a few months since I posted about this. The parameters have been stable. I have been testing every other weekend.

Parameters:
PH 8.0
Nitrate 10.5
Phos 0.05
Mag 1350
Alk 8.1
CA 450
Temp 77
Sal 1.025

Setup:
90 G Aqueon Reef Tank/Stand/Glass Tops
Eshopps AR-200 sump (no refugium running)
Eshopps Axium 160 Skimmer
Kessil Flora for the Refugium (not in use)
Sicce return pump
2 Titanium heaters
Inkbird controller
Apex Neptune monitoring PH, ORP, Temp, sump water level and power
MP40
MP10
Radion XR-15 Blue (G5 and a G6)
Phoban reactor powered by a small Sicce pump
Auto Top Off
Salifert Test kits
Hanna Test meters (Po4 and Nitrate)
Refractometer (Calibration fluid)
Red Sea Pro Salt
4 Stage RO/DI


I added a few SPS frags (2 small montipora caps and a Stylophora) 2 weeks ago - and they did not last. The caps just faded away and the Stylophora has lost about all of its polyps. The other LPS Zoas and mushrooms - No growth. Zoas open some days and some dont.

I am now seeing a hammer that I have had in there for months about to loose its polyps. I have not done a water change in a month as the parameters have been stable. No lighting/flow changes. Only dosing B-Ionic to keep Alk/CA inline. I have fed Reef Roids once a week and the PO4 has stayed .05-06. Skimmer pulling out skimmate. Coraline is still coating all the Rock and back glass.

I am now wondering if there is something in my house water. I am using a RO/DI that the TDS reading shows 0. I have changed the DI out (color changing) as well when needed.

Fish seem fine - all eating and active.

I am not sure what else it could be. Apprently something is missing here that is preventing coral growth and or killing them off. Should I pack it in and tear it down?

 

[Troylee]

Well its been a few months since I posted about this. The parameters have been stable. I have been testing every other weekend.

Parameters:
PH 8.0
Nitrate 10.5
Phos 0.05
Mag 1350
Alk 8.1
CA 450
Temp 77
Sal 1.025

Setup:
90 G Aqueon Reef Tank/Stand/Glass Tops
Eshopps AR-200 sump (no refugium running)
Eshopps Axium 160 Skimmer
Kessil Flora for the Refugium (not in use)
Sicce return pump
2 Titanium heaters
Inkbird controller
Apex Neptune monitoring PH, ORP, Temp, sump water level and power
MP40
MP10
Radion XR-15 Blue (G5 and a G6)
Phoban reactor powered by a small Sicce pump
Auto Top Off
Salifert Test kits
Hanna Test meters (Po4 and Nitrate)
Refractometer (Calibration fluid)
Red Sea Pro Salt
4 Stage RO/DI


I added a few SPS frags (2 small montipora caps and a Stylophora) 2 weeks ago - and they did not last. The caps just faded away and the Stylophora has lost about all of its polyps. The other LPS Zoas and mushrooms - No growth. Zoas open some days and some dont.

I am now seeing a hammer that I have had in there for months about to loose its polyps. I have not done a water change in a month as the parameters have been stable. No lighting/flow changes. Only dosing B-Ionic to keep Alk/CA inline. I have fed Reef Roids once a week and the PO4 has stayed .05-06. Skimmer pulling out skimmate. Coraline is still coating all the Rock and back glass.

I am now wondering if there is something in my house water. I am using a RO/DI that the TDS reading shows 0. I have changed the DI out (color changing) as well when needed.

Fish seem fine - all eating and active.

I am not sure what else it could be. Apprently something is missing here that is preventing coral growth and or killing them off. Should I pack it in and tear it down?

Tear it down? No! You could send in a icp which I don’t really care for but might be of some value in your case… my next course of action if it was my tank is run some carbon and do a couple hefty water changes in case it is something toxic in the tank.

 

[Reef_puck]

Pics of the toast corals

 

[Troylee]

Pics of the toast corals

What are you running in the phosban reactor? I’d stop that what ever it is.. I used to believe rawaphos was the best thing on the market till it started taking my sps out.

 

[Reef_puck]

rowaphos. But the corals not growing were an issue before I started rowaphos. I added rowaphos to lower po4 when it was recommended to feed reef roids and that increased the PO4. I am not sure this is a all/ca/mag issue. Something else in the water is causing this.

If I have one of the “best lights” and flow and keeping the parameters close and inline for most I don’t understand why this is the case.

Good thing is no algae out breaks (yet) (except Valonia in the overflow).

 

[Troylee]

rowaphos. But the corals not growing were an issue before I started rowaphos. I added rowaphos to lower po4 when it was recommended to feed reef roids and that increased the PO4. I am not sure this is a all/ca/mag issue. Something else in the water is causing this.

If I have one of the “best lights” and flow and keeping the parameters close and inline for most I don’t understand why this is the case.

Good thing is no algae out breaks (yet) (except Valonia in the overflow).

I’d be suspect of the rawaphos for the sps deaths… I’d pull that out and throw carbon in that reactor and try some new corals…

 

[Reef_puck]

What could be the issue with the hammers. Zoas that close up and even basic mushrooms that won’t grow?

 

[Troylee]

What could be the issue with the hammers. Zoas that close up and even basic mushrooms that won’t grow?

Looking back at your first post nutrients like numerous people mentioned… corals are starving without phosphate and nitrate. Need to feed more or start dosing both to get your numbers up.. nitrates around 10-20 is good and phosphate .05 or so is a good number.

 

[Reef_puck]

And yet no growth. Something is stunting the growth enough until the die off.

Just trying to figure it out before it ends up in the curb.

Spent a ton of money on trying to do the right thing and yet money does not buy everything. This has been this way since I setup this tank. Come to think of it the 40g cube we had for a year prior to this did not have much growth either but that tank was full of hair algae.

My guess it is something in my water source but don’t know how to check it or even deal with it if a Ro/di can’t clean it up.

 

[Troylee]

Changed the light for the pic

Do you have any fish in this tank? I don’t see any in your pics.. the corals are starving!

 

[Troylee]

I just read the entire thread again.. my best advice is stop chasing numbers.. just let the tank settle down and see how the corals respond.. my numbers are all over the place and my tank is fine! If it wasn’t for my trident I wouldn’t even know what they are cause I just watch the corals and respond accordingly… you can see my graphs I’ve broke every rule of reefing by reading those:

 

[Reef_puck]

Fish are all good. 2 ocelaris clowns, 2 red cardinals, flame hawkish, Melanie wrasse, and spendid Dotty back. Snails, hermits and emerald crabs ok.

 

[Reef_puck]

Besides keeping all/ca and not dosing anything. adding feeding and po4 remover nothing has changed in months on this tank. 17 months not coral growth and lost allot of corals.

 

[Troylee]

You don’t need to dose anything for your corals I don’t see enough in your tank.. water changes should just be just fine for now and let the tank balance out.. it’s mature by now.

 

[Reef_puck]

Before I started the reef roids and rowaphos and all/cat I was just doing water changes it was the same status - corals shrinking then firing off. That what prompted this thread. So months later feeding, adding more stuff. Same result. Only thing that has thrived is the coralline.

Unless the rocks or the glass tank or the water supply is messed up nothing makes sense.

Seriously debating pulling all the livestock then making it a FO. Or just get rid of the whole thing.

 

[Kodski]

It seems like you can maintain a stable environment no problem and that you clearly have a mature tank if you're seeing lots of coraline growth but I think there is an issue with you confusing what the corals actually need. I get maybe someone suggested feeding corals since your P04 was originally 0 but most corals get most of their nutirents from P04/nitrates and not particulate food. I don't understand why you would feed reef roids and run rowaphos.. That's like trying to paint a white wall with a black paint roller and having someone follow you with a white paint roller..

I agree with Troylee, seems like your largest problem is that corals are starving. You hardly have any fish load to feed them. Then by running rowaphos, you're just making it that much more difficult for the corals to feed. LPS and zoa's seem to thrive at levels double and even triple what you're at.

It COULD be something in your water. What I would do to try to figure out it if is or not would be to send a ICP test with freshly mixed saltwater and a sample of tank water. That way you can compare a few things at once. Firstly, you can see if there are any contaminates in your ro/di or salt. Secondly, when comparing your freshly mixed saltwater to your tank water, you can look for elevated metal levels to see if maybe you have something leaching into the water. You mentioned your ro/di tested 0 TDS. This honestly doesn't mean much as things like silicates and chloromines do not reflect in this test. What kind of ro/di system do you have? How many stages? What DI resin do you use? Anion, cation, mixed bed, something different?

What salt are you using? If you're using Tropic Marin Pro, I'm wondering if you have an old Turkey batch or something. Sadly I encountered many issues after using a batch from Turkey which led to my tank taking a swift decline and ended up with me loosing 85% of my corals.

Another thing, do you know your par? You say you have "one of the best lights" but that means little to nothing if you don't know how you're utilizing it. Copying someone else's settings doesn't count toward "knowing" your par. If you don't know, test it, its the only way to eliminate light as an issue of why you're not having success.

Flow can also cause a lot of issues with growth. LPS doesn't like a lot of flow. Like seriously, very little. This is something that I found difficult to get a perspective on personally until I kept lowering my flow rates and playing with powerhead placements. I found that the closer to almost no flow I got, the happier my Zoa's and LPS were. Meanwhile the whole time prior I kept trying to get more and more flow. But the more flow doesn't mean better. Much like lighting its all about how you utilize it.

Keeping a mixed tank is the hardest thing you can do for the corals. You're talking about taking LPS and SPS which prefer the opposite extreme ends of parameters. There is zero way you can keep both types of corals in a tank without one doing less than thriving. To keep thriving SPS means to starve LPS of nutrients and over stimulate the coral with flow and light. To keep thriving LPS means to poison SPS with P04 and not provide the animal with the required flow. Mixed reefs are a win/loose situation. My point I guess, is if you're struggling with LPS and Zoa's, I guess don't be surprised when SPS die. That might sound harsh, but its the truth and something you need to think about if you want to keep from getting discouraged.

Keep your chin up. You'll get to the bottom of this, but it takes a lot of trial and error sometimes. Keep eliminating things one by one and you'll find your issue.

 

[Reef_puck]

Thank you.

Feeding - I was trying Coral Energy but switched to Reef Roids as per recommendations in this thread. Then the PO4 went high and then was recommended to run some phosphate remover. I did question this madness.

Dosing - ALk/CA/Mag were a little low - Used B-Ionic and Red Sea Magnesium to raise it.

SPS - it was worth a try to see if a few frags would make it and they did not. Turned white from the base in 2 weeks. Also wanted some vertical growing coral which would hopefully let me get more colorful corals instead of the green/brown LPS. But maybe that just wont happen.

LPS - I have lost numerous frags of hammers, frogspawns, torches, candy canes, galaxea, blastomussa, over the past 6-8 months. Most shrink up or lose their polyps. No additional stalks/growth.

Zoas - Some are living, some stay closed up most of the time. Some spread a little but most have not.

Mushrooms - there are 2 left in the tank that do not spread/grow. (Also tried ricordeas that I watch get smaller and smaller until they disappear)

Toadstool Leather - It separated from is stalk right below the top.

I do not want this tank to turn into an algae farm either. I have had tanks in the past (not in this house) that have turned into hai algae nightmares that I ended up tearing down). This tank I have been very careful to try to go slow and over feed, over populate, over nutrient. If hair algae showed up - this tank would be torn down.

Fish are fed with Frozen Mysis from Piscine. I should say I tried a two tangs (different times) over the year that did not last more than a few weeks - they were eating fine then died). The 7 fish have lived for a while (Clowns are from the old tank almost 3 years now)

Red Sea Pro Salt

BRS 4 Stage RO/DI - Mixed Bead color changing Resin

I checked with a LFS and they dont have PAR meters - so if I want that route that is another $500 to buy one. Not saying it should not be done. This would have to be one of the last things do to cost at this point.

This tank was setup with new dry rock that was staring to be cured by the LFS. It was never seeded from a full tank. Years ago my tanks I had used cured LR form a LFS and the tank showed tons of life (worms, feather dusters, etc. This tank has none of that. Just an observation.


Now besides a LPC test (Have to order then get and send out) What else should I do with this tank. And in what order timeline? When we say wait it out - is that 2 months, 6 months a year? I see threads all the time of people setting up tanks and corals thriving not waiting 2+ years before adding livestock.

- Just let it sit and watch the corals die off?
- Remove the corals for a while?
- Water change, no whater change? Is so how much, how frequent?
- Feed the fish only ( 1 cube a day?) Feed the fish something else?
- Feed corals anything or not?
- Flow - lower the Vortechs speed down lower?
- Turn off the phosban reactor
- Turn off the skimmer
- Lighting - For now since there is no SPS - and the LPS is mid level to bottom of tank - Keep the lights at 89% intensity on the A/B program template? Or try to lower the intensity? Change the template?
- do nothing for 6 months? (waited 2 months and ended up with not seeing a change)

I dont want to make a ton of changes at once but everything I have done so far is not working.

 

[Troylee]

Thank you.

Feeding - I was trying Coral Energy but switched to Reef Roids as per recommendations in this thread. Then the PO4 went high and then was recommended to run some phosphate remover. I did question this madness.

Dosing - ALk/CA/Mag were a little low - Used B-Ionic and Red Sea Magnesium to raise it.

SPS - it was worth a try to see if a few frags would make it and they did not. Turned white from the base in 2 weeks. Also wanted some vertical growing coral which would hopefully let me get more colorful corals instead of the green/brown LPS. But maybe that just wont happen.

LPS - I have lost numerous frags of hammers, frogspawns, torches, candy canes, galaxea, blastomussa, over the past 6-8 months. Most shrink up or lose their polyps. No additional stalks/growth.

Zoas - Some are living, some stay closed up most of the time. Some spread a little but most have not.

Mushrooms - there are 2 left in the tank that do not spread/grow. (Also tried ricordeas that I watch get smaller and smaller until they disappear)

Toadstool Leather - It separated from is stalk right below the top.

I do not want this tank to turn into an algae farm either. I have had tanks in the past (not in this house) that have turned into hai algae nightmares that I ended up tearing down). This tank I have been very careful to try to go slow and over feed, over populate, over nutrient. If hair algae showed up - this tank would be torn down.

Fish are fed with Frozen Mysis from Piscine. I should say I tried a two tangs (different times) over the year that did not last more than a few weeks - they were eating fine then died). The 7 fish have lived for a while (Clowns are from the old tank almost 3 years now)

Red Sea Pro Salt

BRS 4 Stage RO/DI - Mixed Bead color changing Resin

I checked with a LFS and they dont have PAR meters - so if I want that route that is another $500 to buy one. Not saying it should not be done. This would have to be one of the last things do to cost at this point.

Now besides a LPC test (Have to order then get and send out) What else should I do with this tank.
- Just let it sit and watch the corals die off?
- Remove the corals for a while?
- Water change, no whater change? Is so how much, how frequent?
- Feed the fish only ( 1 cube a day?) Feed the fish something else?
- Feed corals anything or not?
- Flow - lower the Vortechs speed down lower?
- Lighting - For now since there is no SPS - and the LPS is mid level to bottom of tank - Keep the lights at 89% intensity on the A/B program template? Or try to lower the intensity? Change the template?
- do nothing for 6 months? (waited 2 months and ended up with not seeing a change)

I dont want to make a ton of changes at once but everything I have done so far is not working.

You’ll never figure out the problem if you make many changes at once.. I’d leave flow alone I’m not sure the lights you’re using? I’d just change like 10% water weekly and observe the tank. Maybe try a new coral as a tester that hasn’t been through the roller coaster over the last few months and is healthier.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

While I think that finding true coral killing problems by ICP is not the norm, I too would get an ICP test from a quality lab such as Oceamo to gauge if there may be a clear problem that is causing the ongoing issues.