Dying Snails, Crazy Algae, No Nitrates: What is wrong?

[CHSUB]

All I did was remove and scrub the rocks clean and reduce the light intensity as was recommended in this thread. It worked perfectly. I had to continue manual removal for a while, but it never got out of control again.

Not sure why hobbyists would do anything else? I have used simple manual removal and tank maintenance since 1980 and it has never failed. Only once did I try a no WC, menthol deNO3 which produced an algae ridden aquarium did I realize that relying on flawed hobby test kits, potions, or raising some number to grow something else was fruitless. Easier, better just remove and keep a clean unpolluted aquarium.

 

[saltybagel]

I didn't have much luck with a sea hare or lettuce slug. Taking everything out and scrubbing the algae off did me the most good. After that, urchin and hermits kept it under control pretty well, and the snails added to the help once I replaced them.

All I did was remove and scrub the rocks clean and reduce the light intensity as was recommended in this thread. It worked perfectly. I had to continue manual removal for a while, but it never got out of control again.

I appreciate the advice! I'll hold off on a sea hare then and continue to pull off as much GHA as I can. I just placed an order for some dove snails to help with the pieces I can't quite get :)

Not sure why hobbyists would do anything else? I have used simple manual removal and tank maintenance since 1980 and it has never failed. Only once did I try a no WC, menthol deNO3 which produced an algae ridden aquarium did I realize that relying on flawed hobby test kits, potions, or raising some number to grow something else was fruitless. Easier, better just remove and keep a clean unpolluted aquarium.

I completely agree chemical removal methods are not the way to go! Throws off the balance way too much. In my case I need to dose a bit to keep the nitrates around least at 5ppm to help with macroalgae growth and to help prevent dinos though, otherwise nitrates/phosphates bottom out

 

[CHSUB]

I need to dose a bit to keep the nitrates around least at 5ppm to help with macroalgae growth and to help prevent dinos though, otherwise nitrates/phosphates bottom out

I have run reef aquariums with “bottom out” nutrients for decades and everything grows fine including mangrove trees. How are you determining you have “bottom out” nutrients? A flawed low resolution hobby test kit? Why choose 5 ppm as your critical number for success, did a hobbyist recommend this as a magic number that makes everything “right”?

 

[Zakary2003]

I have run reef aquariums with “bottom out” nutrients for decades and everything grows fine including mangrove trees. How are you determining you have “bottom out” nutrients? A flawed low resolution hobby test kit? Why choose 5 ppm as your critical number for success, did a hobbyist recommend this as a magic number that makes everything “right”?

I think most people can agree that nutrients so low that they don't register is asking for problems. It's generally agreed upon that it leads to pale corals and stuff like dinoflagellate outbreaks. 5ppm might not be the magic number, but there's reason to believe that zero is a lot worse.

 

[CHSUB]

I think most people can agree that nutrients so low that they don't register is asking for problems. It's generally agreed upon that it leads to pale corals and stuff like dinoflagellate outbreaks. 5ppm might not be the magic number, but there's reason to believe that zero is a lot worse.

Pale corals and dinoflagellate outbreaks are two completely separate things. Pale corals, imo, are absolutely potentially a nutrient deficiency problem. Dinoflagellate outbreaks are only caused by excess nutrients. Only some ‘glass box hobbyists’ agree that lack of nutrients causes outbreaks. Here is a picture of a dinoflagellate outbreak caused by excess nutrients. K brevis, a dinoflagellate, survives in offshore nutrient poor waters by receiving nutrients from a cyano bacteria. When drifting near shore in nutrient rich waters it becomes a “red tide” outbreak.

 

[Zakary2003]

Pale corals and dinoflagellate outbreaks are two completely separate things. Pale corals, imo, are absolutely potentially a nutrient deficiency problem. Dinoflagellate outbreaks are only caused by excess nutrients. Only some ‘glass box hobbyists’ agree that lack of nutrients causes outbreaks. Here is a picture of a dinoflagellate outbreak caused by excess nutrients. K brevis, a dinoflagellate, survives in offshore nutrient poor waters by receiving nutrients from a cyano bacteria. When drifting near shore in nutrient rich waters it becomes a “red tide” outbreak.

You can't group all species of dinoflagellates together, and you also can't compare what happens in our small, closed systems to the ocean. Yes, ride tide is caused by excess nutrients, but it is only one species of dinoflagellate, and K. brevis is not one of the three common pest dinoflagellate species in our aquariums.

There is a huge abundance of anecdotal evidence that suggests that dinoflagellates appear in reef aquariums with little to no nutrients. They are one of the big plagues of ultra low nutrient tanks, for starters. How can a species that ONLY thrives in high nutient environments like you suggest survive in tanks with intentional ultra low nutrient input?

The theory is that the problematic dinoflagellates in our home aquariums can't compete with the microbes in a healthy tank until there is too little nutrients, in which case the normal microbes get weak and die while the dinos take over.

 

[CHSUB]

You can't group all species of dinoflagellates together, and you also can't compare what happens in our small, closed systems to the ocean. Yes, ride tide is caused by excess nutrients, but it is only one species of dinoflagellate, and K. brevis is not one of the three common pest dinoflagellate species in our aquariums.

There is a huge abundance of anecdotal evidence that suggests that dinoflagellates appear in reef aquariums with little to no nutrients. They are one of the big plagues of ultra low nutrient tanks, for starters. How can a species that ONLY thrives in high nutient environments like you suggest survive in tanks with intentional ultra low nutrient input?

The theory is that the problematic dinoflagellates in our home aquariums can't compete with the microbes in a healthy tank until there is too little nutrients, in which case the normal microbes get weak and die while the dinos take over.

Nothing in biology grows without nutrients, including dinoflagellate. I have never seen a true ULNS with problem algae of any kind. I have seen tanks with 0 no3 on a Salifert or Hanna hobby test kit with all kinds of problem algae; 0 no3 hobby tested doesn’t equal ULNS.

What defines a healthy tank? 5 ppm no3 or is it 1ppm, .5 ppm or in my tank .1ppm (laboratory verified) no3? Making any theory or assumptions based on anecdotal evidence and flawed hobby test kits that goes directly against common biology just because it is in a small glass box is…..

Some elevate no3 as an insurance policy against low nutrients, I can use my eye to see pale corals, sterile looking rock, no algae, and maybe thin fish; not an aquarium with overgrowing problem algae of any kind, dinoflagellate included.

 

[Zakary2003]

Nothing in biology grows without nutrients, including dinoflagellate. I have never seen a true ULNS with problem algae of any kind. I have seen tanks with 0 no3 on a Salifert or Hanna hobby test kit with all kinds of problem algae; 0 no3 hobby tested doesn’t equal ULNS.

What defines a healthy tank? 5 ppm no3 or is it 1ppm, .5 ppm or in my tank .1ppm (laboratory verified) no3? Making any theory or assumptions based on anecdotal evidence and flawed hobby test kits that goes directly against common biology just because it is in a small glass box is…..

Some elevate no3 as an insurance policy against low nutrients, I can use my eye to see pale corals, sterile looking rock, no algae, and maybe thin fish; not an aquarium with overgrowing problem algae of any kind, dinoflagellate included.

Just because there are no peer reviewed scientific studies about the growth of dinoflagellates in the home aquarium in low nutrient environments doesn't mean that the hundreds or even thousands of hobbiest's anecdotal evidence is invalid.

Sure, no organism can grow without any nutrients at all. But some organisms grow better in low nutrient environments than others. You literally cannot obtain true zero nutrients in an aquarium with even a single living organism. The dinoflagellates are just better at growing and making use of the very low nutrient availability compared to bacteria and typical algae, so they outcompete the others and take over when nutrients are low. When nutrients are too high or too low, dinoflagellates thrive. When nutrients are where they are supposed to be, other organisms outcompete them. It's not a difficult concept...

And yes, hobby grade test kits are not perfect. But if a hobby kit reads zero, your nutrients are almost certainly low. If they read high, your nutrients are almost certainly high. The exact value they spit out might not be perfect, but they can still be used to judge if you have high or low values.

Also, I'd just like to point out the hypocrisy of bringing up your anecdotal evidence of your tank as evidence in your case against anecdotal evidence. This is especially hypocritical when I'm citing hundreds of hobbyists's experience while you are talking about your singular tank, and you are saying your singular anecdotal evidence is stronger than all the other anecdotal evidence because you like your answer more.

 

[CHSUB]

Just because there are no peer reviewed scientific studies about the growth of dinoflagellates in the home aquarium in low nutrient environments doesn't mean that the hundreds or even thousands of hobbiest's anecdotal evidence is invalid.

Will agree, hobbyists have likely contributed to discoveries in marine biology.

Sure, no organism can grow without any nutrients at all. But some organisms grow better in low nutrient environments than others. You literally cannot obtain true zero nutrients in an aquarium with even a single living organism. The dinoflagellates are just better at growing and making use of the very low nutrient availability compared to bacteria and typical algae, so they outcompete the others and take over when nutrients are low. When nutrients are too high or too low, dinoflagellates thrive. When nutrients are where they are supposed to be, other organisms outcompete them. It's not a difficult concept...

Imo, dinoflagellate will thrive, grow, and survive when nutrients are low, high, or “where they are supposed to be”(wherever that is?) just like other algae, bacteria, or cyano. Dinoflagellate have no less, no more advantage than any other organisms, they are only second to the party after bacteria and cyano. The hobbyist is better off, imo, keeping nutrients low, manually removing problems, and waiting till more desirable organisms grow being that there only disadvantages is time.

And yes, hobby grade test kits are not perfect. But if a hobby kit reads zero, your nutrients are almost certainly low. If they read high, your nutrients are almost certainly high. The exact value they spit out might not be perfect, but they can still be used to judge if you have high or low values.

Again agree, except my tests read zero no3 and are not low, however I’m aware to look for low nutrients, examples include: pale corals and no algae.

Also, I'd just like to point out the hypocrisy of bringing up your anecdotal evidence of your tank as evidence in your case against anecdotal evidence. This is especially hypocritical when I'm citing hundreds of hobbyists's experience while you are talking about your singular tank, and you are saying your singular anecdotal evidence is stronger than all the other anecdotal evidence because you like your answer more.

Haha, good point. In my defense, I know plenty of reefers with similar results and thoughts as mine. However, I believe I have science on my side and most importantly I believe successful reef aquariums have no single road to success. Some Reefers with intentionally elevated nutrients have a belief, imo, success comes one way…. their way!

 

[saltybagel]

What defines a healthy tank? 5 ppm no3 or is it 1ppm, .5 ppm or in my tank .1ppm (laboratory verified) no3? Making any theory or assumptions based on anecdotal evidence and flawed hobby test kits that goes directly against common biology just because it is in a small glass box is…..

I just want to clarify I am not claiming 5ppm Nitrates is the optimal or best value, it's the calculated concentration I'm dosing into the tank. IMO, there is no "optimal right value"; it's about keeping the parameters within the recommended range and in the right concentrations relative to each other which makes a reef tank thrive. I'm clearly still working on that with my tank, but there's a lot of lovely tanks out there that prove keeping parameters within range AND in balance with each other is what allows everything to grow and thrive. Test kits have deviations of error of course, but good quality ones provide a relative idea of what's going on in a tank, especially when corals are 'unhappy' or pale.

Parameters are used up differently depending on what's stocked in the tank, mine just happens to be a high nutrient export system. Nitrate readings are different for each tank and has a wide range of tolerability depending on what you keep.

I hope this clears this up, and happy reefing!

 

[Zakary2003]

Haha, good point. In my defense, I know plenty of reefers with similar results and thoughts as mine. However, I believe I have science on my side and most importantly I believe successful reef aquariums have no single road to success. Some Reefers with intentionally elevated nutrients have a belief, imo, success comes one way…. their way!

I definitely agree that there are multiple ways to do things, and I'm definitely not saying your approach is wrong. I've seen beautiful tanks with undetectable nutrients, and I've seen beautiful SPS dominated reefs with nitrates in the 30s to 40s.

But you claimed that dinoflagellates cannot grow in low nutrients at all and can only grow in very high nutrients. That was the only claim I have an issue with.

 

[CHSUB]

I definitely agree that there are multiple ways to do things, and I'm definitely not saying your approach is wrong. I've seen beautiful tanks with undetectable nutrients, and I've seen beautiful SPS dominated reefs with nitrates in the 30s to 40s.

But you claimed that dinoflagellates cannot grow in low nutrients at all and can only grow in very high nutrients. That was the only claim I have an issue with.

Slightly misinterpreted, my claim is dinoflagellate can’t grow without nutrients, which imo is nearly impossible in a reef aquarium with fed fish. I believe there is no advantage in elevating nutrients to combat dinoflagellate and maybe a disadvantage. Adding inorganic nutrients is necessary sometimes but not to combat problem algae. Back in 2012 found myself doing just that to the disbelief of many ..

 

[Pod_01]

Slightly misinterpreted, my claim is dinoflagellate can’t grow without nutrients, which imo is nearly impossible in a reef aquarium with fed fish. I believe there is no advantage in elevating nutrients to combat dinoflagellate and maybe a disadvantage. Adding inorganic nutrients is necessary sometimes but not to combat problem algae. Back in 2012 found myself doing just that to the disbelief of many ..

So out of curiosity why pick Seachem Flourish? That is loaded in Potassium, did it work?
Based on K I would not use it.

Was there no dosing option for Phosphate and N in 2012?

Aminos have been around for long time. Trace elements dosing options have been around for years….
Also phosphate addition is not that new, is it?

 

[CHSUB]

So out of curiosity why pick Seachem Flourish? That is loaded in Potassium, did it work?
Based on K I would not use it.

Was there no dosing option for Phosphate and N in 2012?

Aminos have been around for long time. Trace elements dosing options have been around for years….
Also phosphate addition is not that new, is it?

I didn’t find any saltwater aquarium po4 additives. Iirc, few were dosing inorganic nutrients. The thread is still on RC, everybody “pushed” back on the idea. I remember specifically Randy had left, maybe otherwise he could have given me better common industrial options.

It was successful, no3 started reducing and corals improved. I had a large fug that I believe consumed po4. I didn’t have problem algae in DT as that was not the reason for dosing, it was pale, unhealthy corals and sticky high no3.