Losing a fish every month or so

[Birdbrains?]

Part 1: Yes, my experience suggests you are correct in that parasites don't always overwhelm all occupants at the same time. Most of these fish lived for 3+ years with some level of Ich in the system for certain. Not sure why my luck is running out now, but it seems to be so. Gradually.

Part 2: I agree parasite free is possible. Unnatural, but possible. And I can envision doing this with fish only. However I cannot imagine this in practise when it comes to every rock, frag, invert, colony that passes between my two systems and others. I have a coral QT of sorts that has worked but takes only a few weeks. 70+ days for every piece is a whole different game I do not have the bandwidth for given other commitments.

Purity is beyond my resources. Maintaining fish nutrition: Check. Maintaining water stability: Check. Avoiding fish aggression: uhhh... B-. Implementing UV to reduce parasite population: soon to Check.

So far, I have one suggestion that the parasite is Brook, but no others. I know what Ich looks like and have not seen it in years in this tank (although it should still be there as there was never a fallow period after I saw it).

When it takes a fish it is really really fast. But a month or more goes by before the next fish is gone. What parasite behaves this way?

I do appreciate all your input.

Tbh I think we only treat for parasites that burst out through skin and look disgusting and terrify human beings, I don't really think we know much about what is inside the fishes if they do not burst out but I think my point about that is: as long as new specimens are supposed to be added, some immunity is preferred over none.

If you know you want three fishes to live and die in a tank and NOTHING else is going to be added, keeping those three fishes free of everything we usually encounter in this hobby, is a heck of a lot easier than if you want to add something later on.

But do look into problem blennies, just to make sure that you don't miss an angle on the problem that might end up being the explanation on why a fish here and there keeps dying.
And good luck with everything

 

[ScottB]

Tbh I think we only treat for parasites that burst out through skin and look disgusting and terrify human beings, I don't really think we know much about what is inside the fishes if they do not burst out but I think my point about that is: as long as new specimens are supposed to be added, some immunity is preferred over none.

If you know you want three fishes to live and die in a tank and NOTHING else is going to be added, keeping those three fishes free of everything we usually encounter in this hobby, is a heck of a lot easier than if you want to add something later on.

But do look into problem blennies, just to make sure that you don't miss an angle on the problem that might end up being the explanation on why a fish here and there keeps dying.
And good luck with everything

I appreciate all the feedback folks. I am beginning to believe that my tank boss (PBT) may be contributing to my troubles. I am spotting him (from a distance) chasing with a bit more frequency than previously noted. It is just weird how I will see a fish looking fine one day and dead the next. And then a month goes by before it happens again.

It has been a few weeks since the last fatality. If I had to guess who is next -- based on the PBT theory -- I'd have to say the Yellow tang. I might just move my 7" Orange Shoulder Tang in there to restore some order if the harassment persists. He is in my frag system so I can catch him.

 

[Tuffloud1]

I appreciate all the feedback folks. I am beginning to believe that my tank boss (PBT) may be contributing to my troubles. I am spotting him (from a distance) chasing with a bit more frequency than previously noted. It is just weird how I will see a fish looking fine one day and dead the next. And then a month goes by before it happens again.

It has been a few weeks since the last fatality. If I had to guess who is next -- based on the PBT theory -- I'd have to say the Yellow tang. I might just move my 7" Orange Shoulder Tang in there to restore some order if the harassment persists. He is in my frag system so I can catch him.

Aren’t Orange Shoulders pretty similar to Lieutenant Tangs in that they are low on the dominance scale compared to the very dominant PBT?

 

[ScottB]

Aren’t Orange Shoulders pretty similar to Lieutenant Tangs in that they are low on the dominance scale compared to the very dominant PBT?

Yeah you are probably right, but the guy is built like a tank. His turds are nearly the size of the PBT.

He is a hard working fish for me downstairs. I run my frags systems super dirty these days and he grazes all day. My display is probably too clean for him to be happy.

 

[Tuffloud1]

How big was the PBT when you introduced him?

 

[phatduckk]

Put a web cam in front of the tank if you think the boss is beating fish up on the downlow. It’s annoying to scrub through the footage but you might get a few clues

 

[ScottB]

Put a web cam in front of the tank if you think the boss is beating fish up on the downlow. It’s annoying to scrub through the footage but you might get a few clues

Good idea. If I am anywhere around the tank his behavior is totally different.

 

[ScottB]

How big was the PBT when you introduced him?

Maybe 3" probs just under that. The purple was around 4".

 

[Paul B]

I've been supplementing mysis & soaked nori with @Paul B DIY recipe.

Paul B doesn't use nori or Selcon, he told me. What feeding recipe are you using?
I can't tell from here but your tank looks beautiful and healthy, coral wise anyway.

I can't tell from that picture what shape that tang is in and without seeing the fish or the dead fish, close up, I would be totally guessing and I don't like to do that.

Exactly what do the fish do the day before they die? Are they swimming near the surface, shaking their head? Swimming jerkily? Breathing heavy? Losing color? Do they die with their mouth wide open and their gills flared out? Are their eyes cloudy?

Did you look into the gills with a magnifier of some sort after they died?

You may know that I am vehemently against quarantine and especially going fallow. In that tank with all those corals, I doubt that would do anything besides probably kill your remaining fish.

 

[ScottB]

Paul B doesn't use nori or Selcon, he told me. What feeding recipe are you using?
I can't tell from here but your tank looks beautiful and healthy, coral wise anyway.

I can't tell from that picture what shape that tang is in and without seeing the fish or the dead fish, close up, I would be totally guessing and I don't like to do that.

Exactly what do the fish do the day before they die? Are they swimming near the surface, shaking their head? Swimming jerkily? Breathing heavy? Losing color? Do they die with their mouth wide open and their gills flared out? Are their eyes cloudy?

Did you look into the gills with a magnifier of some sort after they died?

You may know that I am vehemently against quarantine and especially going fallow. In that tank with all those corals, I doubt that would do anything besides probably kill your remaining fish.

I certainly thought you'd posted something along the lines of fresh: clams, mussels, squid, oysters, scallops, shrimp and oily fish (I use mackerel when I can). Chop, mix, put in small tupper and freeze. When I defrost a tupper, I add chopped nori, Selcon and mysis.

As to the fish, the deceased purple tang was the only one I discovered still alive, wedged into a large acro colony, all of his skin just sloughing off. He looked perfectly fine the day (possibly two) before. He had been in there for almost 4 years. I could not bear to watch him suffer and euthanized him as humanely as possible.

The other fish "disappeared" with no apparent symptoms beforehand. I have 110lbs of rock and a lot of CUC so carcases are hard t come by. The Potters did have some sparring scars which I attributed to the recent aggression of the coral beauty, but was swimming eating normally otherwise.

I started the thread with a fatality timeline list. After each death/disappearance I would dread looking at the tank next morning fearing a bunch of diseased fish would appear, but would then go a month or so before the next disappearance. Volt meter shows only 7ish volts of stray with heaters going, so nothing there. ICPs are fine just low, I,K and arsenic.

Before this happened, I'd lose a fish or two a year but those I could explain via aggression, or the two Ich outbreaks. For now, I will just keep an eye out on my tank boss, the PBT to see if he has a murderous look in his eye. Otherwise I am kinda stumped.

I share your QT, diet, and fallow philosophy. My sticks would all die without flying fish turds.

 

[Paul B]

I certainly thought you'd posted something along the lines of fresh: clams, mussels, squid, oysters, scallops, shrimp and oily fish (I use mackerel when I can). Chop, mix, put in small tupper and freeze. When I defrost a tupper, I add chopped nori, Selcon and mysis.

Except for the nori, selcon, scallops, squid and shrimp, I do recommend that diet. I eat it myself.
I am going to research your fish deaths through my old notes.

 

[ScottB]

Well this thread went quiet (since February) as I had no further fish loss -- until yesterday. My previous speculation that the YT might be next was wrong. Even though he is still getting chased around by the PBT, and is permanently disfigured by beatings from the previous (since deceased) Purple, he is fine.

Instead, I noticed the remaining clownfish kinda just drifting. He would swim away when I put a net in the tank, but then return to just drifting -- head upward not down as he would normally rest. And not in his normal corner where he always hangs out.

He was black, so spotting ich would've been easy. No spots. No "molt" or visible flesh damage. I am not a fish behavior specialist, but breathing didn't look fast or labored. He was always pretty casual during feedings so I cannot say I noticed much leading up to the night I spotted him drifting. He was not skinny, nor did I see stringy poops. He has since vanished into the rock work with the crabs and shrimp.

So what was once a pattern of losing a fish every other month has slowed down, yet persists in my display. My (separate) frag system has 25 or so fish with no loss pattern aside from a jumping wrasse or two.

 

[Big G]

Have you gram stained any of the fish? Wondering if your have some sort of nasty bacterial infection in the tank.

 

[ScottB]

Have you gram stained any of the fish? Wondering if your have some sort of nasty bacterial infection in the tank.

No I have not. I've never even heard of it before, but google clearly has. Looks like I have some reading to do. I will happily receive any links you have that might hasten my research effort. Kinda in a battle with aefw at the moment that is rather distracting and tedious but my wife is more anxious about the fish.

 

[Big G]

Need a reasonable priced microscope and a gram staining kit. Amazon is where I picked up mine. The scope doesn't have to be very high powered to do the exam.
When you do the stain, a gram negative bacteria looks pink and gram positive looks kinda violet.

Student scope like this is fine:

 

[ScottB]

Need a reasonable priced microscope and a gram staining kit. Amazon is where I picked up mine. The scope doesn't have to be very high powered to do the exam.
When you do the stain, a gram negative bacteria looks pink and gram positive looks kinda violet.

Student scope like this is fine:

Awesome, thank you. As I am an expert dinoflagellate farmer, I have a solid 'scope already.