Low alkalinity. Wits end.

[StevenS01]

What was it before? What are you using for alk?

6.3.. used the BRS 2 part

 

[MnFish1]

I think the only thing I haven’t done, is mixing the salt prior to heating. I’ll usually take a big tub, toss a powerhead with a heater in there, and that’s how I mix it as I slowly heat it to 77 degrees

Yes - Im not sure why it says 'dont mix for more than 4 hours'. I assume thats why they say 'heat first then mix'.

 

[MnFish1]

6.3.. used the BRS 2 part

btw another thing - the calculator from BRS assumes that you accurately have measured that actual amount of water in your tank/sump. (i.e. take out rocks, etc). Part of the reason you might not be getting up to where you want is that your water volume estimate is not correct.

 

[StevenS01]

From the Article By Randy:

Let’s first look at how calcium and alkalinity are consumed in reef tanks.

Calcium is largely consumed by formation of calcium carbonate. This happens biologically3 in corals, coralline algae, mollusks, and a variety of other organisms. It can also happen abiotically1, such as by precipitation on heaters and pump impellers. In a reef tank with rapidly calcifying organisms, this effect will so predominate any other calcium export mechanism, that no others need be considered for this purpose.

Alkalinity2 for our purposes here is comprised of bicarbonate and carbonate. The vast majority of alkalinity depletion in most tanks also comes about by the precipitation of calcium carbonate, as described above. In this process, as alkalinity is depleted by 1 meq/L, calcium will be depleted by 20 ppm. There are some other processes that can lead to alkalinity depletion, including partial cycling of nitrogen (from organic compounds to nitrate and no further) and the incorporation of magnesium into calcium carbonate, but these are generally much less important than calcification.

Consequently, alkalinity depletion in most tanks (especially in short time frames) is tightly coupled to calcium depletion, and if one supplements calcium and alkalinity in proportions equal to those that they are being removed, then it is MUCH less likely that calcium and alkalinity will become imbalanced4 and thereby trickier to correct. That is, the only problems that you will encounter are those in zones 1 and 2 (not enough or too much of these additives). Using a balanced scheme, you should not ever end up in zones 3 and 4, where you have substantial imbalances between calcium and alkalinity.

Additionally, overdosing of balanced additives typically seems to simply result in an increase in the amount of calcium carbonate that is being precipitated in the tank, and does not, in general, lead to substantial increases in dissolved calcium and alkalinity. This fortunate circumstance comes about largely because of the supersaturation of calcium carbonate1 in reef tanks.

Regarding alkalinity, should I basically check this at the end of the day, or tomorrow, and find out how much 2 part is going to be required to raise it back up to 7.7 dKH, and use that as my daily additive? Maybe measure calcium in a few days and figure out the daily dose?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

The one reason that I am not sure that its the 'test kits' is that he is also adding alk - yet its dropping overnight. Its not like the test is consistently x dkh higher or lower than it should be (unless the checker is indeed completely 'broken'. ). He is saying 'Im adding alk - but the dkh is only going up temporarily'. This suggests that something is going on in the tank itself.

The new Hanna Ca checkers are better than the old one - if OP is using the old one without the pipette it could be the Ca is not accurate either

He tested his fresh mix. It was 9. It should be 12-13.
I’d say it’s a very good question.

If he keeps testing a tank with test error , well.... it won’t matter what he’s adding to the tank.

 

[StevenS01]

He tested his fresh mix. It was 9. It should be 12-13.
I’d say it’s a very good question.

If he keeps testing a tank with test error , well.... it won’t matter what he’s adding to the tank.

I’ll mix some salt and test it a little later. Just for grins I tested some limewater and it tested at 20 dKH

 

[amazongb]

When I do “that,” I mean adding more and more alkalinity. And yes it’s a 43 Gallon system, which just baffles me because I didn’t imagine such a small tank can consume so much.

That’s why I switched back to the BRS 2 part because it seems much more basic. This question seems real stupid, but when my calcium skyrockets, should I not add any? You said that calcium fluctuates when none, or not enough is added. I keep reading that by not adding calcium, that contributes to the problem.

Have you tested calcium with another kit? I threw may Hanna calcium checker in the trash, it would test 500+ and it was 400..

 

[MnFish1]

He tested his fresh mix. It was 9. It should be 12-13.
I’d say it’s a very good question.

If he keeps testing a tank with test error , well.... it won’t matter what he’s adding to the tank.

Yes. Maybe the reagent is expired. Something must be off somewhere. I didn’t see that he retested it after mixing it properly

 

[jasonrusso]

What is the salt mix supposed to be? I'm using foster and Smith pro salt and it is supposed to be 9dkh, reef crystals advertises 11.

I've never tested either in the bucket.

 

[Rakie]

Tanks don't always have even consumption of minerals. It's very, very possible to be dosing twice as much Alk as Calcium at some point, especially if the Alk or Calcium isn't equal in strength.

50ml per day of BRS isn't that much at all.

Additionally, "I didn't think a little tank would need so much" -- You got that backwards. Small tanks = Fast changes. A smaller tank will use alk up faster than a larger tank with the same amount of corals. I'm dosing about 80ml per day in my tank, and it's about the same size (45 cube).

When I had issues with Mag / Alk it was due to an improperly calibrated refractometer. Calibrating your refractometer should be done every 2-3 times you use it. Having imporper salinity can impact your tests and precipitation. Otherwise we'll likely need more information.

 

[MnFish1]

Tanks don't always have even consumption of minerals. It's very, very possible to be dosing twice as much Alk as Calcium at some point, especially if the Alk or Calcium isn't equal in strength.

50ml per day of BRS isn't that much at all.

Additionally, "I didn't think a little tank would need so much" -- You got that backwards. Small tanks = Fast changes. A smaller tank will use alk up faster than a larger tank with the same amount of corals. I'm dosing about 80ml per day in my tank, and it's about the same size (45 cube).

When I had issues with Mag / Alk it was due to an improperly calibrated refractometer. Calibrating your refractometer should be done every 2-3 times you use it. Having imporper salinity can impact your tests and precipitation. Otherwise we'll likely need more information.

its all about 1. Verifying your tests. 2. Verifying your tests. 3. Reacting to the results..

 

[StevenS01]

its all about 1. Verifying your tests. 2. Verifying your tests. 3. Reacting to the results..

Tested again. In a period of 5 hours my alk dropped from 7.7 to 6.9. I set my doser to pump 25 mL every five hours, and I also set up a dripper to drop in buffer periodically. Gonna try to keep it at 7.7, and then raise it above 8 tomorrow. I appreciate all the help and input I’ve been receiving.

 

[Rakie]

its all about 1. Verifying your tests. 2. Verifying your tests. 3. Reacting to the results..

Yep. Usually it's fairly smooth sailing, but when there's a problem the hobby feels like this

 

[Rakie]

Tested again. In a period of 5 hours my alk dropped from 7.7 to 6.9. I set my doser to pump 25 mL every five hours, and I also set up a dripper to drop in buffer periodically. Gonna try to keep it at 7.7, and then raise it above 8 tomorrow. I appreciate all the help and input I’ve been receiving.

That could be right, but that also could be a bit fast. I would make sure through another source what your Alk/Cal/Mag, Salinity is. Its okay if your LFS only uses API, they're accurate enough to give you a vague idea. If they say "hey, your mag is 1100", i'm sure it's not exactly 1100, but you'll then know that your mag is low, and it may be the issue.

I'm gonna double down and say make sure you have a new calibration solution for your refractometer.

 

[re76]

I had the same problem when I was using two part, I started slow, did everything right, but no matter how much alk part I dosed it never went up. Turns out it was just calcifying in my sand bed.

Poke your sand a bit, and I bet you will find some parts that have hardened. I blame it on the Sodium Carbonate, I think the PH was too high causing it to precipitate, or something. I'm not sure. Long story short I now use sodium bicarbonate as my alk part and no longer have the issue. It has a lower PH and works great for me. If all else fails, I recommend giving it a shot. Or Kalk. I had a lot of good luck with Kalk too.

I think Randy has a recipe for it somewhere. You can't use the same ratio as with the sodium carbonate.

Edit: Just read through more of your post, and saw you were upping the dose to 25 mL every 5 hours, which for your size tank seems like way too much. Unless you have a ton of SPS and/or clams. This sounds exactly like what I experienced. Kept trying to go higher on the dosing, convincing myself that my few coral might actually be using that much. They weren't. It was all just precipitating into my sand.

 

[re76]

Managed to find the really helpful video from BRS that helped me realize I had a problem:


Switching to sodium bicarbonate, and lowering the dose as BRS suggested was what got me back on track. Best of luck!

 

[StevenS01]

I had the same problem when I was using two part, I started slow, did everything right, but no matter how much alk part I dosed it never went up. Turns out it was just calcifying in my sand bed.

Poke your sand a bit, and I bet you will find some parts that have hardened. I blame it on the Sodium Carbonate, I think the PH was too high causing it to precipitate, or something. I'm not sure. Long story short I now use sodium bicarbonate as my alk part and no longer have the issue. It has a lower PH and works great for me. If all else fails, I recommend giving it a shot. Or Kalk. I had a lot of good luck with Kalk too.

I think Randy has a recipe for it somewhere. You can't use the same ratio as with the sodium carbonate.

Edit: Just read through more of your post, and saw you were upping the dose to 25 mL every 5 hours, which for your size tank seems like way too much. Unless you have a ton of SPS and/or clams. This sounds exactly like what I experienced. Kept trying to go higher on the dosing, convincing myself that my few coral might actually be using that much. They weren't. It was all just precipitating into my sand.

Yeah I thought that was to much for my tank too. I dunno, it’s mainly LPS and a few SPS frags. I am currently running a bare bottom setup, and some people are saying that this isn’t unusual for small tanks.

 

[re76]

Yeah I thought that was to much for my tank too. I dunno, it’s mainly LPS and a few SPS frags. I am currently running a bare bottom setup, and some people are saying that this isn’t unusual for small tanks.

Watch the BRS video I just posted above. I think it will help. Also, if you aren't terribly averse to it and you don't depend on the PH raising property of Sodium Carbonate I would give Sodium Bicarbonate a shot. You can use any baking soda from the store as long as there are no other ingredients. No need to get the stuff from BRS unless you want to buy it in bulk in the future.

 

[gcrawford]

I use a geo calcium reactor for my alkalinity and haven't tested the water in 3 years. Everything grows like crazy and there's very little worry. I don't see why everyone is on the dosing kick, but I'm somewhat old-school.

 

[Joseph Pagnotta]

So I am Late to this Alkalinity Party, but what if my Issue is the Opposite, I can't get my Reef under 15dkh. No matter how often (every 2 weeks) 1/4 water Change. Any proven products that can reduce at all? Any help is welcomed