LPS Trouble (gaping mouth, head bail)

[dannyd_]

Hello all,
I have been having trouble with two corals now for a couple weeks. I have a gold hammer that has two heads, and one of the heads bailed about a week and a half ago and my frogspawn is not looking good. My system is about 2 years old, 10 gallons and has been running steady for a while. I have pretty much left it on autopilot, not changing the dosing for the past 8 months or so with 10% weekly water changes. Since the head bailed I started testing again and found my alk at 11.9. I believe that since the tank was looking good for many months I got lazy with testing, and I let the alk get too high. I have been slowly lowering it back down by lowering the dosing, and as of today my params are:

Alk: 10.1
Ca: 466
Nitrate: <25
Salinity: 35

The other head on my gold hammer looks like it is about to bail as welll, as part of the head is not attached to the skeleton. About a week ago I noticed my frogspawn has a head with a mouth that is gaping, and it has been worse since. I have another frogspawn that also hasn't been opening up as much recently, but I have two other hammers and a torch that have remain unaffected. The only other changes to the tank of note is that I now mix my own salt (Fritz Pro RPM), and did my first water change using that a couple days ago (3 days). I wanted to see if you all think the culprit is the alkalinity swing, or could it be something else since it is not effecting all my LPS. Please let me know if you have had a head bailout before, and what you think the cause was. I have been dealing with vermatid snails, but I don't know if this is the cause (I have been trying to eliminate by hand and with bumblebee snails). Thank you all for your help.

Also side note, if anyone has had success rehabilitating a hammer bailout head, let me know what you did. I currently have the bailed out hammer head in a small cage with a bunch of rocks, it has been opening up all the way since it bailed two weeks ago, but I just don't know if it will ever re-attach to a rock.

 

[shwareefer]

I don't think anyone knows specifically why heads bail, but is more or less agreed it is a last ditch effort for self preservation (since they can't otherwise move themselves). It's also ageed generally that bailed heads don't grow new skeletons but I'm sure I read someone recently said their's did. Perhaps it's a time and improved environment thing. There's no harm in keeping it but don't let it get sucked into a pump - I had an elegance coral that bailed many years ago and it looked absolutely thrilled to be off it's skeleton for a few days until it flew into an intake and got shredded.

 

[dannyd_]

I don't think anyone knows specifically why heads bail, but is more or less agreed it is a last ditch effort for self preservation (since they can't otherwise move themselves). It's also ageed generally that bailed heads don't grow new skeletons but I'm sure I read someone recently said their's did. Perhaps it's a time and improved environment thing. There's no harm in keeping it but don't let it get sucked into a pump - I had an elegance coral that bailed many years ago and it looked absolutely thrilled to be off it's skeleton for a few days until it flew into an intake and got shredded.

I don't have high hopes, but it is a strange last ditch effort if it almost never works. It also frustrating, as I would rather see the coral close up over time, which is something I can observe and respond to as they normally do, rather then just up and leave their skeleton. But yes I have it covered so I don't have to worry about it getting caught in the intake, thank you for the response.

 

[Dakota_reef]

I have a feeling your Calcium and Alk are still too high. And Nitrates in the 25 or less range is VERY HIGH for some corals.

Do more water changes to bring that ALK/Ca down.
*There ARE additives to reduce alkalinity, but they can be dangerous if you dose them wrong (pH and ALK can drop like a brick).

My Hammer tolerates low ALK/Ca/Mg but reacts poorly when my ALK and Ca are too high.'

What is your tank's pH?

 

[dannyd_]

I have a feeling your Calcium and Alk are still too high. And Nitrates in the 25 or less range is VERY HIGH for some corals.

Do more water changes to bring that ALK/Ca down.
*There ARE additives to reduce alkalinity, but they can be dangerous if you dose them wrong (pH and ALK can drop like a brick).

My Hammer tolerates low ALK/Ca/Mg but reacts poorly when my ALK and Ca are too high.'

What is your tank's pH?

Yes my alk is definitely still high, I want it between 8-9 but I don't want to do it quickly. I will definitely do maybe two water changes a week to get it down slowly, at this point I am thinking that I will lose one of the frogspawn heads but I don't want to shock other corals that are doing fine. Before dosing many months ago my alk would sit at around 6-7, so I know I can get it back down. My pH test kits recently expired and I need to get some, so I don't know as of now. I have been in a new apartment for this fall so maybe that change could have contributed to a pH change.

 

[shwareefer]

I remember the Kent strontium/molybdenum additive claimed to benefit flesh to skelton adhesion but doubt there's supportive science - likely just anecdote based marketing. I've heard maintaining elevated magnesium provides this same benefit as well as overall benefit for euphyllia/ fimbriaphyllia ( also anecdotal). I myself keep my magnesium near 1500 and it certainly hasn't hurt anything.

 

[dannyd_]

I remember the Kent strontium/molybdenum additive claimed to benefit flesh to skelton adhesion but doubt there's supportive science - likely just anecdote based marketing. I've heard maintaining elevated magnesium provides this same benefit as well as overall benefit for euphyllia/ fimbriaphyllia ( also anecdotal). I myself keep my magnesium near 1500 and it certainly hasn't hurt anything.

I currently dose Red Sea foundations alkalinity and calcium (I stopped alkalinity to bring it down now), but what do you do to maintain higher magnesium?

 

[Dakota_reef]

Yes my alk is definitely still high, I want it between 8-9 but I don't want to do it quickly. I will definitely do maybe two water changes a week to get it down slowly, at this point I am thinking that I will lose one of the frogspawn heads but I don't want to shock other corals that are doing fine. Before dosing many months ago my alk would sit at around 6-7, so I know I can get it back down. My pH test kits recently expired and I need to get some, so I don't know as of now. I have been in a new apartment for this fall so maybe that change could have contributed to a pH change.

I think I read you should only decrease ALK by like .5/day so it's a good idea to slow the drop, but also to make sure you can drop .5/day, as it would take less days to get to a target of 8.0 (where I try to keep mine).

If your tank doesn't drop .5/day, there are acid buffers I've used with my water change mix, but you have to be patient and test with small batches.*I had a dkh of 12 once and had to change it as quickly and safely as possible. Saved me making tons of RODI water for large water changes to dilute

Excess CO2 in the air is what keeps my tank's pH as low as 7.8 if I keep the windows closed for more than a day. If you can vent the apartment by opening windows, that can help if it's related to pH. If you can test, it'll be easy to tell.

As reference, when I open windows, turn on whole-house-fan, my pH is 8.1-8.3. When the house is closed it's 7.78-8.1

 

[Dakota_reef]

I currently dose Red Sea foundations alkalinity and calcium (I stopped alkalinity to bring it down now), but what do you do to maintain higher magnesium?

I've used "Reef Complete" as a Ca/Mg additive, and it seemed to work just fine. I test Ca weekly, and Mg every two weeks to maintain. And when I forget, They both drop pretty proportionally so far.

As of today, I use 3-part dosing alk/ca/mg for now seperately, ALK is on dosing pump. Ca/Mg dosed weekly or as needed.

 

[dannyd_]

I think I read you should only decrease ALK by like .5/day so it's a good idea to slow the drop, but also to make sure you can drop .5/day, as it would take less days to get to a target of 8.0 (where I try to keep mine).

If your tank doesn't drop .5/day, there are acid buffers I've used with my water change mix, but you have to be patient and test with small batches.*I had a dkh of 12 once and had to change it as quickly and safely as possible. Saved me making tons of RODI water for large water changes to dilute

Excess CO2 in the air is what keeps my tank's pH as low as 7.8 if I keep the windows closed for more than a day. If you can vent the apartment by opening windows, that can help if it's related to pH. If you can test, it'll be easy to tell.

As reference, when I open windows, turn on whole-house-fan, my pH is 8.1-8.3. When the house is closed it's 7.78-8.1

I am going to test alk today and if it is below 10 then it will dropping a little slower than that rate, so I should be good there. As for pH I am going to get to the lfs to have them test it and I will also pick up some test. Thank you for those numbers to reference, I will get back to you on what the pH is. Even if the pH is out of range, would I not be expecting to see other corals also suffering? The same goes for this alkalinity spike, I am suprised other corals have been fine (I have mostly lps and some softies.

 

[Reefer911]

Check your par readings. I recently had basically the same thing happen and found my par numbers to be dismal. Like 25-30 in some places, and <100 at the top.

Prior to finding that, I was convinced that it was my salt, Fritz RPM Pro also. Others have speculated that even had problems due to that salt mix but who knows. I did end up switching to Nyos salt for other reasons

But I’m working to get my par numbers up. I just installed Radions and Mobius makes it easy. I previously had ReefiUnos and could not figure out how to control the lights, hence my dismal PAR numbers

 

[shwareefer]

I currently dose Red Sea foundations alkalinity and calcium (I stopped alkalinity to bring it down now), but what do you do to maintain higher magnesium?

I keep magnesium in my topoff water. Was using Seachem Advantage Reef Magnesium but it's mostly sodium chloride (for ionic balancing allegedly) so I'm goint to change to something else, just haven't decided yet.

 

[dannyd_]

Check your par readings. I recently had basically the same thing happen and found my par numbers to be dismal. Like 25-30 in some places, and <100 at the top.

Prior to finding that, I was convinced that it was my salt, Fritz RPM Pro also. Others have speculated that even had problems due to that salt mix but who knows. I did end up switching to Nyos salt for other reasons

But I’m working to get my par numbers up. I just installed Radions and Mobius makes it easy. I previously had ReefiUnos and could not figure out how to control the lights, hence my dismal PAR numbers

I don't have the ability to check par, but I can't imagine this to be an issue as I currently use the radion g5 at 30 percent (I have a small tank), but if the issue persist I can see if I can borrow a par meter from someone.

 

[dannyd_]

I keep magnesium in my topoff water. Was using Seachem Advantage Reef Magnesium but it's mostly sodium chloride (for ionic balancing allegedly) so I'm goint to change to something else, just haven't decided yet.

Ok sounds good, I will see how my magnesium levels are later today, and I will consider it for the future.

 

[shwareefer]

Ok sounds good, I will see how my magnesium levels are later today, and I will consider it for the future.

Cool, I've grown out lots without their heads popping off but I can't say that's the reason. Still didn't hurt.

 

[dannyd_]

Cool, I've grown out lots without their heads popping off but I can't say that's the reason. Still didn't hurt.

amazing, one day. This is the biggest my frogspawn got, had it from one head (blurry picture below). Fragged it and just kept one head, would be sad to see it go it was one of my first corals.

 

[shwareefer]

amazing, one day. This is the biggest my frogspawn got, had it from one head (blurry picture below). Fragged it and just kept one head, would be sad to see it go it was one of my first corals.

looks great.

 

[dannyd_]

looks great.

appreciate it

 

[Dakota_reef]

I am going to test alk today and if it is below 10 then it will dropping a little slower than that rate, so I should be good there. As for pH I am going to get to the lfs to have them test it and I will also pick up some test. Thank you for those numbers to reference, I will get back to you on what the pH is. Even if the pH is out of range, would I not be expecting to see other corals also suffering? The same goes for this alkalinity spike, I am suprised other corals have been fine (I have mostly lps and some softies.

My hammer was the only one angry at my high Alk so I'm not sure all corals hate it . My SPS didn't seem to care.

 

[dannyd_]

Just as a follow up my pH was 8.0, and my mag is at 1400. All signs point to alkalinity swing.