@DanielJameS Hard to say for sure, but I think I can see tiny white specks on his fins. Looks like velvet.
But some of the stuff I'm seeing might just be debris on the glass.
But some of the stuff I'm seeing might just be debris on the glass.
Marine velvet or ich. I don't know
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DanielJameS
Active Member
@Humblefish there are definitely specs on his fins, looking pale and I've seen him do the yawning thing. He's out now into the QT with the clowns. Is a fish this small going to be able to withstand a FW dip? I tried for a couple hours to trap a couple of the others with no success, I may have to tear the tank apart tonight.
Thanks again for all the knowledge and wisdom.
Thanks again for all the knowledge and wisdom.
melypr1985
totally addicted
Yes, I see no reason why he wouldn't be able to unless he's already too far gone to save.
DanielJameS
Active Member
He was doing pretty well the past several weeks. I had one of these a couple months prior who died, wasn't eating etc I chalked it up to stress, but I now know otherwise. For a $10 fish I'm probably unusually motivated to save him but I've grown quite fond of him.
The others still in the DT are way too slick to be netted so tomorrow is probably going to be a really, really long day.
The others still in the DT are way too slick to be netted so tomorrow is probably going to be a really, really long day.
@DanielJameS When you catch him, definitely give that goby a FW dip: https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/video-how-to-do-a-freshwater-dip.214/
In addition to providing temporary relief for velvet, the FW dip will let you know whether or not that goby (and consequently the rest of your fish) has flukes. You will understand what I mean when you watch the video.
In addition to providing temporary relief for velvet, the FW dip will let you know whether or not that goby (and consequently the rest of your fish) has flukes. You will understand what I mean when you watch the video.
DanielJameS
Active Member
@Humblefish well one positive of this whole thing is, as healthy and non-indicative my clowns have been showing disease, within hours of getting them to the QT they started twitching, scratching on the PVC in the tank, so that lets me know the DT had a major problem, my only sure fire indicator thus far. In an "emergency" (though I planned to go the CP route) I made the executive decision to start ramping up copper immediately. I gave half the recommended dose tonight, will test tomorrow and proceed, despite not all DT fish being in QT I feel I'm at the point of save what you can while you can and figure the others out as I go.
The only locally available copper in a pinch was the Kordon stuff from Petco, which again through reading your posts differs from cupramine in its effectiveness/safety but I felt I had to act quick and had no choice, it's as if they were immune to it in the DT being comfortable and took capture to show.
I'm very committed at this point to figuring this out for long term success. I've had mixed reef tanks in the past and never had to deal with this and know I dropped the ball not QT'ing from the get-go but this whole thing will be a learning experience and wake up call for me in a very positive way.
I already told my girlfriend our date night tomorrow is most likely going to consist of essentially breaking down an entire tank to get the remaining fish out, and re-aquascaping, thankfully she's fascinated and onboard.
I only cross my fingers at this point that it's not something that requires complete tear down, bleaching and reset, because after what I've taken on and invested, I'm not sure I can withstand that.
Expecting the worst, hoping for the best.
Dan
The only locally available copper in a pinch was the Kordon stuff from Petco, which again through reading your posts differs from cupramine in its effectiveness/safety but I felt I had to act quick and had no choice, it's as if they were immune to it in the DT being comfortable and took capture to show.
I'm very committed at this point to figuring this out for long term success. I've had mixed reef tanks in the past and never had to deal with this and know I dropped the ball not QT'ing from the get-go but this whole thing will be a learning experience and wake up call for me in a very positive way.
I already told my girlfriend our date night tomorrow is most likely going to consist of essentially breaking down an entire tank to get the remaining fish out, and re-aquascaping, thankfully she's fascinated and onboard.
I only cross my fingers at this point that it's not something that requires complete tear down, bleaching and reset, because after what I've taken on and invested, I'm not sure I can withstand that.
Expecting the worst, hoping for the best.
Dan
@DanielJameS Kordon Copper-Aid is watered down chelated copper, so you'll want to switch over to Coppersafe ASAP. @Maritimer can testify.
Have some flowers waiting when your gf comes over for date night.
Have some flowers waiting when your gf comes over for date night.
DanielJameS
Active Member
I'd also like to add to this post for any future viewers, be cautious of "deals" you get buying used. Despite doing many things right (sans quarantine) I have no idea that this whole thing wasn't present before I even owned the tank and it's inhabitants. Looking back, the tank was neglected, and fishless. I'm of course now wondering why.
I pulled live rock, placed into a bin to cure for a month, re-sealed tank, replaced all sand etc etc, but for all I know the previous owners had an issue with fish dying off, threw a cheap UV sterilizer at it, etc only to pass the problem on to me.
The only positive is, I have 100's of dollars of coral I revived from terrible conditions that are now growing and thriving BUT....
Be patient and QUARANTINE EVERYTHING YOU CAN
Lesson learned
I pulled live rock, placed into a bin to cure for a month, re-sealed tank, replaced all sand etc etc, but for all I know the previous owners had an issue with fish dying off, threw a cheap UV sterilizer at it, etc only to pass the problem on to me.
The only positive is, I have 100's of dollars of coral I revived from terrible conditions that are now growing and thriving BUT....
Be patient and QUARANTINE EVERYTHING YOU CAN
Lesson learned
DanielJameS
Active Member
@Humblefish luckily I'm smart enough to know flowers aren't enough, a full on dinner and whatever she wants is in order [emoji23] she's great about it, she loves the little guys (or gals?)
My LFS (only place to get way overpriced cupramine) opens tomorrow fairly early so my plan was to go get that first thing ASAP.
As far as fish that are still in the DT, can I add them to
Quarantine with copper running via some type of slow drip acc. Or is that a death sentence? (Ironically so is staying in the DT)
I only added half of what was recommended because I felt it better than doing nothing and also given the stress of capture did not want to go full on dose right away. If I spent several months in a smokey bingo hall, I think 100% clean air would be a shock to me...maybe I should stop applying my sensibilities to fish haha.
I keep looking for glass half full scenarios. I've seen this situation happen to people with multiple healthy, thriving, and at times rare fish, from what I've read you are no stranger to this which is why I respect your advice.
If the glass is half full, it's because I'm glad I caught this now hoping I can right the ship
My LFS (only place to get way overpriced cupramine) opens tomorrow fairly early so my plan was to go get that first thing ASAP.
As far as fish that are still in the DT, can I add them to
Quarantine with copper running via some type of slow drip acc. Or is that a death sentence? (Ironically so is staying in the DT)
I only added half of what was recommended because I felt it better than doing nothing and also given the stress of capture did not want to go full on dose right away. If I spent several months in a smokey bingo hall, I think 100% clean air would be a shock to me...maybe I should stop applying my sensibilities to fish haha.
I keep looking for glass half full scenarios. I've seen this situation happen to people with multiple healthy, thriving, and at times rare fish, from what I've read you are no stranger to this which is why I respect your advice.
If the glass is half full, it's because I'm glad I caught this now hoping I can right the ship
melypr1985
totally addicted
it won't matter. you will want to remove the copper you are currently using before using the new copper anyway. So if you are getting the new copper tomorrow, then you can just start dosing it after you get the other fish in there with the first group.
It's awesome that your girlfriend is down to help you do this on date night! Kudos to both of you!
DanielJameS
Active Member
Well even if she's not...she sure sells it! [emoji23]
Truth be told she was with me the first time I went and looked at it. For the condition that it was in to what its become, she's become guilty by association haha. I think this hobby does that to people. ALL the colors and movement, plus she's a Pisces by way of astrology she has no choice but to care [emoji23]
DanielJameS
Active Member
By the way...I read A LOT and as far as forums are concerned, @Humblefish and @melypr1985 y'all are the most responsive and informative people ever to frequent amateur inquiries such as mine hence why I'm on this thread. I hope you realize how much intellectual and dedicated aspiring hobbyists appreciate this type of experience, advice and guidance, it's invaluable.
I recently used Kordon's Copper-Aid on a 75 gallon QT. Each 4oz. bottle states that it "Treats 100 Gallons". It took a week of ramping up according to instructions and beyond, and three and a half bottles to reach therapeutic levels in the 75.
Now I'm wondering if the reason I've been more successful with wrasses with that medication than with ionic copper isn't the fact that there isn't very much copper in that bottle . . . (6_6)
~Bruce
Now I'm wondering if the reason I've been more successful with wrasses with that medication than with ionic copper isn't the fact that there isn't very much copper in that bottle . . . (6_6)
~Bruce
DanielJameS
Active Member
That's good to know. Interestingly when I introduced half a dose yesterday, it seemed as though my clowns were reacting to it, almost as if they were shaking off whatever it was reacting with and today they look a lot better and mellowed out, could just be used to the new QT though
DanielJameS
Active Member
A couple more questions for y'all...
1.) as I understand, blennys and mandarins are sensitive to copper. I have both. How should I go about treating them?
2.) the fish I have in quarantine now are being ramped up with Kordon Copper-Aid. I bought cupramine today but have not proceeded with that yet as the QT fish (particularly the yellow clown goby) look leaps and bounds better, and I don't have all the fish out of DT yet (trap hasn't worked.)
I still have a LM blenny, orchid dottyback, mandarin and 1 chromis that need to come out. I found a 20 gallon long I'm going to pick up tomorrow (currently have a 10g up) what is my best bet for transferring the current QT fish to the 20G with the newly caught fish being as there is copper in the system? Run carbon and wait to test zero first then transfer them?
Can I acclimate the newly caught fish to low levels (especially being Kordon) of copper?
1.) as I understand, blennys and mandarins are sensitive to copper. I have both. How should I go about treating them?
2.) the fish I have in quarantine now are being ramped up with Kordon Copper-Aid. I bought cupramine today but have not proceeded with that yet as the QT fish (particularly the yellow clown goby) look leaps and bounds better, and I don't have all the fish out of DT yet (trap hasn't worked.)
I still have a LM blenny, orchid dottyback, mandarin and 1 chromis that need to come out. I found a 20 gallon long I'm going to pick up tomorrow (currently have a 10g up) what is my best bet for transferring the current QT fish to the 20G with the newly caught fish being as there is copper in the system? Run carbon and wait to test zero first then transfer them?
Can I acclimate the newly caught fish to low levels (especially being Kordon) of copper?
melypr1985
totally addicted
The blennys will be fine in copper. I've yet to find one that couldn't handle it. The mandarins are best served by TTM (ich only) or Chloroquine Phosphate (CP). If neither of those are available options to you, then I would suggest giving them to somebody else with a warning note. It's a tuff call I know.
I would catch the ones still in the DT, put them in the 20 gallon, then move the other fish over to the 20 gallon. You can then start using the cupramine if you wish or continue with the copper aid. Whichever you prefer. Fish can go from full copper to zero copper in a finger snap and be ok. It's the going from zero to full therapeutic that they have trouble with. Keep in mind that your 30 days starts anew once the copper reaches therapeutic levels on this second time.
DanielJameS
Active Member
Thanks! I am aware, I'm actually looking at this as a marathon not a sprint as I don't want to have to do this again, so whenever all fish are out of DT is when the timer gets set.
I'm actually in the process of working on acquiring CP. I have some Vet connections here In Nashville I'm hoping can come through for me, I've also found a seller on eBay I've been drilling with questions for the last 2 weeks who seems to be reputable, but lord knows where that stuff originates even though claims of "lab tests available, 99.9% pure" are claimed.
In the event I decide to go CP, as a treatment and prevention in the long haul, are there any side effects of dosing copper, than lowering/eliminating it from the water, waiting through an evaluation period and then dosing CP?
I wish this was as simple as ALL fish in QT, pick treatment, move forward but obviously I've painted myself into a bit of a read and react corner. At this point, everything I can save is a win to me regardless of the hoops to jump through.
Thankfully I don't have any overly sensitive or "valuable" fish yet, but value is in the eye of the beholder i guess.
I highly recommend working with your vet to get a Rx filled through this compounding pharmacy: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-place-to-buy-chloroquine.252610/
Anecdotal experiences with the "eBay seller" are hit or miss.
I would use one or the other, not both. For example, Anthias, Wrasses and Hippo Tangs are fish I recommend NOT TO USE CP on until more research can be done. For the time being, chelated copper (exs. Coppersafe, Copper Power) is the best alternative to use on these species.
More info on CP: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chloroquine-phosphate.192309/
DanielJameS
Active Member
Just want to thank @melypr1985 and @Humblefish for all your help and guidance. Fish are finally all out of DT after successfully trapping my dottyback this morning and into a new copperless 20G long QT.
I gained access to some CP so I'm going to be going that route. The only thing that has me bummed is my mandarin. There's no way to keep him eating in QT as my DT had a massive pod population and I just had a massive copepod explosion.
I've checked with my LFS, they don't seem willing to take him back or house him temporarily.
Would there be any benefit to placing say an 8x5 acrylic tray with sand from the DT (which is loaded with copepods) and some rubble rock from my fuge to create sort of a pod condo and mandarin hangout? I know it's no comparison to the 75G pod rich DT, but maybe provide some refuge for him till I can make better arrangements? Does CP kill pods? I've read mixed things on this.
I gained access to some CP so I'm going to be going that route. The only thing that has me bummed is my mandarin. There's no way to keep him eating in QT as my DT had a massive pod population and I just had a massive copepod explosion.
I've checked with my LFS, they don't seem willing to take him back or house him temporarily.
Would there be any benefit to placing say an 8x5 acrylic tray with sand from the DT (which is loaded with copepods) and some rubble rock from my fuge to create sort of a pod condo and mandarin hangout? I know it's no comparison to the 75G pod rich DT, but maybe provide some refuge for him till I can make better arrangements? Does CP kill pods? I've read mixed things on this.
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