Mass STN of Acros

[Zoajohn]

For the last month, all of my acros have been very gradually STNing starting from the outside of the bases in. It seemed to kick off when I replaced my 2x Hydra 26HD's with 3 Radion G5 XR15's, as I had two colonies RTN pretty much immediately 2-3 days after. My radions have just completed a 25 day acclimation, yet all acros are still very slowly receding from the base. While the lighting change may have caused the initial stress, I think some other unknown pest or pathogen took advantage while they were weak and is causing the current damage. I should note that all zoas, LPS, and my montis are thriving. In fact my Monti's are exploding with growth which is strange. My CA and ALK demand has also risen during all of this as a result. More info below...

I noticed some white bugs on the most recent acro addition to my tank around the 1st of Feb and originally didn't think it was anything besides a regular old pod. I then discovered there are white bugs related to red/black bugs, so I did my first dose of interceptor last Tuesday. It wiped out my hermits and peppermint shrimp, but my Fire shrimp is hanging in there. I believe it was successful and I haven't seen any white bugs on acros. I will continue with 2 more doses one week apart from the previous, though it doesn’t appear the STN has stopped.

Dosing is controlled by a Trident. Nutrient levels were last tested last week, but I will be retesting tonight as I have been dosing PO4+ NO3 and feeding more.

Tank info:
Tank: Reefer 350 (92g total volume)
Lighting: 4bulb T5 hybrid w/ 3x G5 Radion XR15 Blues
Flow: MP10 and MP40 both reefcrest
Salt: Red Sea blue bucket
Alk: 7-7.6 (kept around 8dkh before realizing my nutrients were so low, and slowly dropped closer to 7)
CA: 415
MG: 1250
NO3: 1-2ppm
PO4: 2 PPB (basically zero PPM)

PAR is 350-375 at top of rock, no lower than 200 on various parts of sandbed.

Any thoughts on what’s causing this?

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

Nitrates are too low. Are you saying that PO4 is 0.02? That's just a touch low as well.

Your ALK is low and seems like it had quite a swing recently.

You should have read PAR with a meter before you switched. Then you could have adjusted the PAR of the new lights and there would be no guessing. As personal preference, and also since you have LPS, I like to run Magnesium around 1450 to 1500.

One MP10 and one MP40 isn't the best flow in a tank that size. However, I get your LPS can't handle the type of flow that SPS need.

 

[X-37B]

No2 and p04 are fine as long as you feed and dose accordingly, imo.
The No3 and po4 numbers we get are what out export system is not removing from the system.

I have to dose po4 in 2 systems and I practice heavy in/out.

I like to run mag at1350-1400.
Alk of 7 is fine. I have never had an issue if it drop. Corals will just grow slower. If it goes up to 8ish no issues. Been running this way for years.

Average ocean alk is 6.5.

So if your system is stable the Radions may have caused your issue, imo.
If your system is not stable then the Radions may have been part of the overall effect.

I browned out many corals when I went to g5 blues on my 80g.
I went back to a 40% scheduled intensity and worked up from their. Im at 100% across the board as I now run the ab+ at full throttle.

The bugs, or the treatment, may have contributed for sure. I have never had to deal with them as I run a 6 line wrasse in all my systems.

 

[Zoajohn]

Nitrates are too low. Are you saying that PO4 is 0.02? That's just a touch low as well.

Your ALK is low and seems like it had quite a swing recently.

You should have read PAR with a meter before you switched. Then you could have adjusted the PAR of the new lights and there would be no guessing. As personal preference, and also since you have LPS, I like to run Magnesium around 1450 to 1500.

One MP10 and one MP40 isn't the best flow in a tank that size. However, I get your LPS can't handle the type of flow that SPS need.

All of these STN issues started before I dropped my alk down, so the ~.85 doesn't bother me as much. I wish I had a PAR meter at that time, but could not get it from my local group until recently.

Mag has always been between 1250-1300 for the 3 years I've ran this setup without issue. The LPS could maybe benefit from it being higher so that is something to think about.

Also been running the same flow for the life of this tank, and I agree - but never really seemed to be a problem.

No2 and p04 are fine as long as you and feed and dose accordingly, imo.
The No3 and po4 numbers we get are what out export system is not removing from the system.

I have to dose po4 in 2 systems and I practice heavy in/out.

I like to run mag at1350-1400.
Alk of 7 is fine. I have never had an issue if it drop. Corals will just grow slower. If it goes up to 8ish no issues. Been running this way for years.

Average ocean alk is 6.5.

So if your system is stable the Radions may have caused your issue, imo.
If your system is not stable then the Radions may have been part of the overall effect.

I browned out many corals when I went to g5 blues on my 80g.
I went back to a 40% scheduled intensity and worked up from their. Im at 100% across the board as I now run the ab+ at full throttle.

The bugs, or the treatment, may have contributed for sure. I have never had to deal with them as I run a 6 line wrasse in all my systems.

My system was extremely stable up until the lighting change, that was the only thing I really did differently since starting the tank. My CA/ALK demand has shot way up as of recently since the Radions are providing more par and coverage, but doesn't appear that my acros are helping with that since the gradual STN continues...

I'm really hoping it was the bugs, because at least I know exactly what to do for those! Doing interceptor dose #2 tomorrow.

 

[Crustaceon]

It’s probably the bugs if you’ve had stable growth and no base recession at those water parameters long-term. As mentioned, numbers are just numbers and what really matters is how the import/export of nutrients in controlled. Sounds like you had that down perfectly fine as many reefers who successfully run ULNS tanks can attest to. Realistically, you’re not going to have simultaneous base recession and growth if water parameters are off.

 

[Zoajohn]

It’s probably the bugs if you’ve had stable growth and no base recession at those water parameters long-term. As mentioned, numbers are just numbers and what really matters is how the import/export of nutrients in controlled. Sounds like you had that down perfectly fine as many reefers who successfully run ULNS tanks can attest to. Realistically, you’re not going to have simultaneous base recession and growth if water parameters are off.

I haven't seen any white bugs since the first interceptor dose but I suppose there could still be some. Still doing 2 more doses per the protocol though.

Forgot to mention that I've got an ICP test en route to see if it could be anything else.

 

[Dburr1014]

Sorry to hear op.
Between the bugs and lights, this may have kicked it off. Or one or the other, hard to say.
I do agree your flow is a tad under. Growing coral will only hinder it more and where is that tipping point?

But, alk is good and lowering to 7dkh was the right thing to do. That small amount wouldn't do anything.

I run my mag @ 1500+, the way I see it, is rather have mag available for uptake than have them searching for it.

Hope you can turn this around.

 

[Crustaceon]

I haven't seen any white bugs since the first interceptor dose but I suppose there could still be some. Still doing 2 more doses per the protocol though.

Forgot to mention that I've got an ICP test en route to see if it could be anything else.

ICP is a good idea.

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

Sorry to hear op.
Between the bugs and lights, this may have kicked it off. Or one or the other, hard to say.
I do agree your flow is a tad under. Growing coral will only hinder it more and where is that tipping point?

But, alk is good and lowering to 7dkh was the right thing to do. That small amount wouldn't do anything.

I run my mag @ 1500+, the way I see it, is rather have mag available for uptake than have them searching for it.

Hope you can turn this around.

7 dkh recommendation has always interested me. I'm not sure why anyone would run it that low unless they have a calcium reactor. It opens you up to a very small window of potential issues.

I'm serious about the interested part, I just don't see the benefit of low Alk. People reference the ocean being at around 7dkh. The ocean has unlimited Alk and calcium to keep it there.

@Dburr1014 amy thoughts on that?

 

[Dburr1014]

7 dkh recommendation has always interested me. I'm not sure why anyone would run it that low unless they have a calcium reactor. It opens you up to a very small window of potential issues.

I'm serious about the interested part, I just don't see the benefit of low Alk. People reference the ocean being at around 7dkh. The ocean has unlimited Alk and calcium to keep it there.

@Dburr1014 amy thoughts on that?

Low nutrients and high alk are opening the door to dinos.
OP noticed is nutrients were very low so he basicly slowed down the coral to match.

 

[Zoajohn]

Well the STN is still progressing, albeit very slowly. Dosed round 2 of interceptor this morning and will be performing a water change and adding back carbon/skimmer tonight. ICP test will arrive tomorrow.

I'm really at a loss for what to do now. Every other coral continues to thrive. It even seems like some of my acros are still growing upwards on the branches, but losing tissue from the base simultaneously.

 

[Dburr1014]

The last ditch efforts would be frag healthy tissue and remount.

 

[Zoajohn]

The last ditch efforts would be frag healthy tissue and remount.

I did this on the first colony that started to RTN. The frag died over night, maybe the ones STNing will fare better

 

[Zoajohn]

Finally got the ATI report back. Nothing looks off except for zero nitrate, low phosphate, and some low trace values. I am dosing some trace elements to work on those. I am also gradually bringing magnesium up to 1300.

The STN is very slowly continuing on some parts of the bases, yet the acros also are growing some in other areas which is very strange... Any thoughts?

I was also pleasantly surprised to see how accurate my trident is compared to the ICP test results. Day of trident tests compared to ICP tests below:
Trident dkh: 6.98
ATI: 7.02

Trident CA: 405
ATI ICP: 399.2

Trident Mag: 1255
ATI ICP: 1251

 

[ryshark]

Finally got the ATI report back. Nothing looks off except for zero nitrate, low phosphate, and some low trace values. I am dosing some trace elements to work on those. I am also gradually bringing magnesium up to 1300.

The STN is very slowly continuing on some parts of the bases, yet the acros also are growing some in other areas which is very strange... Any thoughts?

I was also pleasantly surprised to see how accurate my trident is compared to the ICP test results. Day of trident tests compared to ICP tests below:
Trident dkh: 6.98
ATI: 7.02

Trident CA: 405
ATI ICP: 399.2

Trident Mag: 1255
ATI ICP: 1251

Iodine is important too, I’d get that up.

 

[Lavey29]

I think a combination of the light changes and low nutrients levels are stressing your corals.

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

I stand by my previous post. Nitrate is way too low and need to be adjusted. Phosphate will take care of itself as you feed fish. I like to keep mine in the 12 to 18 range. A little more or less won't hurt, just as long as you have a decent amount.

I agree with @Lavey29 on his above post. If there is ever a lighting change it is a necessity to use a PAR meter. You'll never get close without one and Acropora become very accustomed to certain levels and if they change quickly, it will cause what you're having.

About all you can do at this point is ride it out. Setting PAR would have been first to match the old lights. I would also start dosing some Aminos. Red Sea AB+ would be a good one to dose to encourage nutrient uptake. Get your Nitrates up over the next week or so, doesn't have to be done turtle slow.

I've had a few do what yours are doing and if you leave them, they usually come back, but it can take months. A nice dip in Revive by Julian Sprung for 5 minutes followed by a 10 minute dip in Lugol's Iodine works well for me.

I wish you the best of luck and hang in there.

 

[Dburr1014]

I stand by my previous post. Nitrate is way too low and need to be adjusted. Phosphate will take care of itself as you feed fish. I like to keep mine in the 12 to 18 range. A little more or less won't hurt, just as long as you have a decent amount.

I agree with @Lavey29 on his above post. If there is ever a lighting change it is a necessity to use a PAR meter. You'll never get close without one and Acropora become very accustomed to certain levels and if they change quickly, it will cause what you're having.

About all you can do at this point is ride it out. Setting PAR would have been first to match the old lights. I would also start dosing some Aminos. Red Sea AB+ would be a good one to dose to encourage nutrient uptake. Get your Nitrates up over the next week or so, doesn't have to be done turtle slow.

I've had a few do what yours are doing and if you leave them, they usually come back, but it can take months. A nice dip in Revive by Julian Sprung for 5 minutes followed by a 10 minute dip in Lugol's Iodine works well for me.

I wish you the best of luck and hang in there.

Feeding the fish more will take care of both phosphate and nitrate. No?
Coral need ammonium not nitrate. As long as he has a reading of 1-2ppm,should be good to go. It's the phosphate at 0.02 that needs to come up. Minimum 0.05 in my book.

Anywhere between a 1:1 to a 10:1 ratio of n : p should be fine. 5:1 and up is better though.

 

[ryshark]

@Zoajohn
The acros would be able to withstand the light change better if your iodine and nutrients were at the proper level.
I’ve heard Mike Paletta talk about the importance of Iodine in videos and here is a post from well respected vendor who colors up corals with the best of them, talking about iodine in his Tenuis thread.

HIGH END Tenuis Hoarder

From now on ask what par SPS sitting at veggie you buy from someone else yea at that point all my coral was from TSA pretty much only, i think I lost 50 frags with my stupidity moving tanks, they were in my last tank over a year at 220par range i believe and I was slowly still going up.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

Feeding the fish more will take care of both phosphate and nitrate. No?
Coral need ammonium not nitrate. As long as he has a reading of 1-2ppm,should be good to go. It's the phosphate at 0.02 that needs to come up. Minimum 0.05 in my book.

Anywhere between a 1:1 to a 10:1 ratio of n : p should be fine. 5:1 and up is better though.

You need to read my post again. I said feeding the fish will take care of Phosphate. That's assuming you are feeding then enough and have a decent amount of fish.

If you keep a reading of 1-2 ppm of Nitrate, you better be feeding those corals on a regular schedule. No one keeps Nitrate that low anymore and it's a mistake to do so in my experience.

To each his own though. Everyone has their own way of running their tanks and that's what makes this hobby interesting.