Metal Halide and T5 Grow Corals Better Than LED and Cost Less

[oreo54]

You can exceed "sunlight" "PAR" w/ many lights..
Secondly "natural" "PAR" varies throughout the day (even on cloudless skies)

The DLI is important..

Light Data from a Hawaiian Tidepool

Can we possibly match the amount of natural light in an aquarium?

reefs.com

 

[Rjramos]

Every time I read about electrical costs of MH I wonder if people are accounting for the costs of running heaters.

Yeah, MH adds heat to the system on which I have MH. That just means the heater gets a break during the day. Either way, we're converting electricity to heat.

Probably depends a lot on your local climate -- I don't own any chillers, and my heaters run almost constantly. So as far as I'm concerned both the heat and electrical issues of MH are non issues in a situation like this.

Definitely not the situation in south Florida. Unless you get an A/C system and fans capable of maintaining 65 when it’s 90 outside

 

[A. grandis]

Ok... what about Dr. Sanjay Joshi's opinion back when he changed from those 400W 14K Ushio halides to the LEDs?
Does LED keep up with the bright colors of ALL corals? For some?
He was sad talking about his bright yellow Porites that became dull gray.
Hopefully the new G5s will do better.
Or should he get those 400W halides back? What do you think?

 

[oreo54]

Ok... what about Dr. Sanjay Joshi's opinion back when he changed from those 400W 14K Ushio halides to the LEDs?
Does LED keep up with the bright colors of ALL corals? For some?

Suggest you ask him...


Different issue..
Start 9:05..

 

[A. grandis]

Yeah... the nutrients play with intensity. That's why those 600W halides did produce those colors in the other video and didn't bleach...
Too bad Sanjay can't bring that bright yellow color to his Porites even playing with the nutrients. I guess some pigments really need the right spectrum/intensity. With the halides his whole tank was more colorful IMO. He has the same Porites coral in 2 places (top left and in the center for more light) but it didn't matter much. They look gray now.
Anyways... the article you posted (post number 61)... that is probably very close to the color of the yellow Porites Sanjay was talking about in that video. Maybe even brighter. Thanks.

 

[oreo54]

Yeah... the nutrients play with intensity. That's why those 600W halides can produce those colors in the other video and not bleach...
Too bad Sanjay can't bring that bright yellow color to his Porites even playing with the nutrients. I guess some pigments really need the right spectrum/intensity. With the halides his whole tank was more colorful IMO. He has the same Porites coral in 2 places (top left and in the center for more light) but it didn't matter much. They look gray now.
Anyways... the article you posted (post number 61)... that is probably very close to the color of the yellow Porites Sanjay was talking about in that video. Maybe even brighter. Thanks.

Do you condemn lights based on one or a handful of corals?
Regardless of the color are they growing and healthy?
Are there other corals that are different/better under each light?

Too many questions you and I can't answer..

 

[A. grandis]

Do you condemn lights based on one or a handful of corals?

Absolutely not.

Regardless of the color are they growing and healthy?

They are all growing healthy to it's limits according to the system they are in.

Are there other corals that are different/better under each light?

Different for sure! Better will depend on different personal opinions.

Too many questions you and I can't answer..

I just did.

 

[DesertReefT4r]

For me I used only MH for the longest time. My first MH setup was a 150w 10k Coralife clamp on on a 29g tank. That grew into a a 55g with another 150w clamp on, then a 40b with the same lights only with 14k then 20k Coralife bulbs ended up liking Phoenix 14k best. the. The 40B got a 250w pendant with Icecap ballast and Phoenix 14k which was uograded to a 75g with another of the same 250w pendant setup. I started my current 75g with a simliar 250w pendant setup. I was never able to get good color from acros, they would go into my tanks looking great from the LFS or other hobbiest tanks and end up green or brown. I switched to the Hydra 32s a few months ago and it has been a major improvement in coral color in my case. All colors have muxh better color and acros are keeping or improving in color.

 

[vanpire]

Some of you guys need to stop, taking it personal...

Everything I said was true...

True for you, but probably not most other people using halides. Because others disagree with you or don't have the same experience doesn't mean it is personal.

Your experiences with bulbs exploding and bleaching do seem unusual. Not saying it didn't happen to you, but I have never heard of anyone else with those experiences before. For example, I did have bulbs "explode" once when a fish splash water on it, but I added a glass shield and problem gone.

My argument against LEDs is the total cost of ownership is much higher than halides. I did the math for me, and it doesn't make sense. I can probably use black boxes LEDs and they are cheaper but I don't trust them just yet. Maybe in a few years.

I have a friend nearby who grows super amazing corals with LEDs, and I would have no issues switching to LEDs if not for the costs. I would need at least 6 units but more like 8 units of Radions he uses to replace the MH units that cost me about $300 used + $220 annual bulb cost. I buy bulbs at Black Friday every year. Easy peasy to remember to change bulbs.

6-8 units of the Radions that he has, even used @ $500/ea, would cost me $3k-$4K. It would take me more than 10 years to recoup the initial cost and that does not include the cost of capital. Radion wattage conservatively running at 50% would be 510 W to 680 W (.5 x 170W x 6 to .5 x 170W x 8). My halides run at 750W. There are some electricity savings using Radions but not that much in electricity cost savings.

Heat - I live AZ and don't run a chiller. There is a fan that I run and that is enough. I do try to keep my tank at 80 degrees in the summer and it drops to 78 in the winter because my heater is only 150W and can't maintain the tank at 80 in the winter.

Now, if Ecotech is a good friend of mine and can offer me Radions really cheap....

 

[A. grandis]

Here is that bright yellow Porites under 400W halides @ 27:11... the whole video is good.

 

[Aardvark1134]

Pretty sure I could come in this thread and point out that the old 10W incadesent colored lights in the tiny hood covers would not be the best choice for a reef and at least 3-4 people would jump all over it and post their facts on why those things are awsome for coral growth and far better than X Y Z.
BTW in many many tanks not having lights, flow, and nutruients adjusted for each others causes issues. Also any change especially a major one normally causes temp issues too.

 

[Bpb]

True for you, but probably not most other people using halides. Because others disagree with you or don't have the same experience doesn't mean it is personal.

Your experiences with bulbs exploding and bleaching do seem unusual. Not saying it didn't happen to you, but I have never heard of anyone else with those experiences before. For example, I did have bulbs "explode" once when a fish splash water on it, but I added a glass shield and problem gone.

My argument against LEDs is the total cost of ownership is much higher than halides. I did the math for me, and it doesn't make sense. I can probably use black boxes LEDs and they are cheaper but I don't trust them just yet. Maybe in a few years.

I have a friend nearby who grows super amazing corals with LEDs, and I would have no issues switching to LEDs if not for the costs. I would need at least 6 units but more like 8 units of Radions he uses to replace the MH units that cost me about $300 used + $220 annual bulb cost. I buy bulbs at Black Friday every year. Easy peasy to remember to change bulbs.

6-8 units of the Radions that he has, even used @ $500/ea, would cost me $3k-$4K. It would take me more than 10 years to recoup the initial cost and that does not include the cost of capital. Radion wattage conservatively running at 50% would be 510 W to 680 W (.5 x 170W x 6 to .5 x 170W x 8). My halides run at 750W. There are some electricity savings using Radions but not that much in electricity cost savings.

Heat - I live AZ and don't run a chiller. There is a fan that I run and that is enough. I do try to keep my tank at 80 degrees in the summer and it drops to 78 in the winter because my heater is only 150W and can't maintain the tank at 80 in the winter.

Now, if Ecotech is a good friend of mine and can offer me Radions really cheap....

Your point of view runs perfectly parallel with mine.

 

[RCS82]

Your point of view runs perfectly parallel with mine.

That is my belief too. Takes a lot of LED units to match T5 or M/H spread and output. But let's keep in mind I can keep a fish tank successfully with one or 2 LED units. Wall to wall Acro dominant tanks are different than keeping a few mushrooms and leathers. The mention about dropping or breaking a bulb though is ludicrous. How many threads have I read titled "help I dropped my radion/hydra/BB in my tank" lol

 

[Snuggs]

If your concerned about your carbon footprint - a hobby that requires things being shipped in heavy bags of water across the oceans and country ain’t the best look.

Only buy locally bred

 

[Battlecorals]

As someone who is still actively running all three lighting otpions seperatly, running very similar par and spectrum, within the same system, with the same corals under all three, I can say with certanty that in my case there is not much of a difference throughout. In apperance or growth.


The T5 grown coral has a bit more volume to it and i think that's just because more of the actual coral gets more light in places that are otherwise shaded under led or halide. But it's still really subtle.

If I pulled all the actual fixtures off and asked someone to pick out which was the halide tank or T5 or LED, I'd bet the farm most would get it wrong. Or woudl just be guessing completely, as the immediate visual differences are practically nonexistent. As for growth, maybe a little better under t5 and halide, but I'm still not sure. There are trade offs, but not even close to what I'd call a compromise in any way. Ultimately, I can't really come out and say X is clearly better than Y and/or Z in this case at all. For whats it's worth.

A quick nugget on costs as well. Every time I have to shell out another 700.00+ to replace T5 bulbs, I ask myself "why am I not just buying another Led instead" lol. True story. It stings every time.

 

[Potatohead]

Has someone done an actual cost breakdown on say expense after five years on an acropora tank? I think with the higher spread LED's like Orphek and the new G5, it will help sway the costs to LED side a bit, but with puck style you need so many units I find it hard to believe it's cheaper than other options. Power savings with LED has pretty much been abolished too, I mean the new XR30's are over 200 watts. Then as someone touched on earlier if you live in a moderate to colder climate you could actually save money on electricity with MH/T5 because your heaters will run a lot less.

So for something like a 6'x2'x2' 180g:

Three XR30's - $840 x 3 = $2520. This is pulling about 600 watts if you get Blues and run full power

60'' eight bulb Sunpower - $792 + yearly bulb changes of $25 x 8 = $200 per year. So to get through five years, four bulb changes is $800, total cost ~$1600. Total wattage ~650

I won't do MH because I have never run them and I don't know what is a good fixture and what isn't, but I do know a lot of the good stuff you have to try and buy used now. Still I think the break even point with LED has to be several years.

 

[Bpb]

Has someone done an actual cost breakdown on say expense after five years on an acropora tank? I think with the higher spread LED's like Orphek and the new G5, it will help sway the costs to LED side a bit, but with puck style you need so many units I find it hard to believe it's cheaper than other options. Power savings with LED has pretty much been abolished too, I mean the new XR30's are over 200 watts. Then as someone touched on earlier if you live in a moderate to colder climate you could actually save money on electricity with MH/T5 because your heaters will run a lot less.

So for something like a 6'x2'x2' 180g:

Three XR30's - $840 x 3 = $2520. This is pulling about 600 watts if you get Blues and run full power

60'' eight bulb Sunpower - $792 + yearly bulb changes of $25 x 8 = $200 per year. So to get through five years, four bulb changes is $800, total cost ~$1600. Total wattage ~650

I won't do MH because I have never run them and I don't know what is a good fixture and what isn't, but I do know a lot of the good stuff you have to try and buy used now. Still I think the break even point with LED has to be several years.

Devils advocate here....would people need to run their radions at the full 600 watts to reach the same par levels as the ati sunpower?

 

[Dana Riddle]

One of the great things about halides is the shimmer. I believe it is very different than LEDs' shimmers for 1 main reason: comes from one source of spectrum/intensity. A 10000K halide reminds me when I'm snorkeling in very shallow water. It is very similar to the eyes. I believe the concentration of the light in the shimmer from halides is great for coral's health as well. It brings natural pigments alive. If anyone knows any paper about that I would love to check it out. Also, any paper on benefits of UV lighting for corals. Excess of UV is detrimental to any organism, but I believe the right amount of UV has it's benefits to terrestrial and ocean organisms.

A look at glitter lines.

Glitter Lines: More Than Aesthetic?

This article will present some initial data from recent experiments relating to the physiological effects of glitter lines within aquaria, and also how our artificial glitter compares to that found in natural reefs.

reefs.com

 

[oreo54]

Devils advocate here....would people need to run their radions at the full 600 watts to reach the same par levels as the ati sunpower?

They should run them in a ratio of LED vs MH/t5..
Around 25% less "watts" should be equiv.. Going down to 50% is "doable".. photon wise.
going equal is a bonus... as long as watt efficiency is close to equal, see below.
As diodes become more efficient this will change.

the PAST propaganda used much lower ratios which is what gave LED's a bad rap at the time..
Or 165"watt" black boxes really running at 110W and possibly poor efficiency..

Photon efficiencies (for the sake of argument lets use "lumens" for the moment since it's readily available)
MH's 60-90 L/watt
HPS 100-ish L/watt
LED 50-200 L/watt
T5 80-90 L/watt
(off the top of my head)

ADD the increased delivery due to the diodes angular beam and directional-ality (no matter the reflector efficiency you WILL lose light at your target) 100 L/W MH is not equal to 100L/watt LED (120-90 degree ect) on your target area..

Obviously placement has a lot to do w/ it.. Narrow beams up, wide beams down to the surface water..unless you want to punch "par" to the floor.

 

[Potatohead]

Devils advocate here....would people need to run their radions at the full 600 watts to reach the same par levels as the ati sunpower?

Probably, yes.

An eight bulb ATI will put down about 250 par consistently at the sandbed in a 24" tank.