Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

Cruz_Arias · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
Named the Method... Kinda like the "PowerLift Technique" in the Chemical and Manufacturing industry teaching you how to "Lift Correctly"
http://www.safetytrainingnetwork.com/store/powerlift-lifting-training-that-works.

In regards to particulates including bubbles with a diaelectric as they rub up against anything including the water itself, there is a localized capacitance to the bubble itself.

In regards to solubility, if water was not polar, where there is a slight positive charge on the hydrogen end and a slight negative on the other.
For NaCl to dissolve there needs to be an electro-negative charge to water. being electrical we only look at e- as the energy carrier... because there is no such thing as an e+.

Regarding over hype... that's a personal opinion... I stated what was observed by hobbyists, not me, not Elegant Corals... Regular hobbyists trying a method out and observing positive results.

So I'm going to reiterate.

There are 2 deficiencies that we have noticed while servicing tanks, troubleshooting setups, etc...

1. Lack of Aeration
2. Lack of Proper Nutrient Transport

All benefits from accomplishing these two main issues with one method, I would think is a resultant of attending to these two KNOWN issues that no one ever mentions.

Hype to maintain proper pH based on aeration? Not Hype.
Hype on better coral calicification due to better pH stability based on buffering capacity? Not Hype.
Hype on better membrane health? Meh... we observe desliming and increase Ca+, Alk, and Mag uptake, so sure...
Hype on better water clarity? Not Hype. Based on Waste Water Treatment DAF treatment of influent where I have worked automating the waste stream management systems and process controls.
Hype on faster coral growth? Well, with better water clarity, you get better light penetration. So... Not Hype.
Hype on Higher D.O. and ORP? Not Hype. Plenty of APEX readings out there including our own...

Hype on what?

Reefahholic · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz, can you post a video of the correct bubble size so we can see what they look like in your own tank?

Cruz_Arias · Mar 30, 2016

Reefahholic said:
Cruz, can you post a video of the correct bubble size so we can see what they look like in your own tank?

With the Video quality on a 550gallon system it looks like a fog... I can tell you that the bubbles are smaller than the period at the end of this sentence.

Rybren · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
Hey Rich
Carlson Surge Device... the Vortex squeezes the air column in the surge tank in the "whirlpool" as the surge device drains...
Look at Joe's Video at time 12:00 on...

At about 13:12, Joe says that the bubbles aren't really desirable and then goes on to mention ways to eliminate them.

Cruz_Arias · Mar 30, 2016

Reefahholic said:
Cruz, can you post a video of the correct bubble size so we can see what they look like in your own tank?

Everybody's screen size is different also... so... It wouldn't be a really good place to show size... but in the attached video at 50 seconds... watch from there...

Cruz_Arias · Mar 30, 2016

At 2:00 they show you how to detect nanobubble refraction of a laser beam to detect the presence of the NBs...

Cruz_Arias · Mar 30, 2016

Regarding electricity static or otherwise, this was one that I think is pretty cool...

http://slideplayer.com/slide/2770735/

And this classic one... how static electricity can induce repulsion in a running stream of water, not a sitting cup of water.

http://www.wikihow.com/Bend-Water-with-Static-Electricity

Reefahholic · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
At 2:00 they show you how to detect nanobubble refraction of a laser beam to detect the presence of the NBs...

Cruz_Arias said:
Everybody's screen size is different also... so... It wouldn't be a really good place to show size... but in the attached video at 50 seconds... watch from there...

I've already seen that video a long time ago. I wanna check out what you personally got going in your own reef. I haven't seen any other videos but mine. I saw the one that was very short from elegant corals I believe, but the bubbles appeared larger and fewer than the way I have mine set up. Plus I can control the bubble output with a valve. Post something up for us to judge off of!

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
Hype on what?

I cannot understand why you are even asking "on what" since I posted the exact sentences that I said were wrong.

For clarity, this exactly:

"Solubility of ions in a solution depend on electro negativity of the solute (water in this case)... water is not just water... it is a stream of life giving electricity..."

"The bubbles rubbing up against each other are like balloons or water droplets in the storm clouds... as they pass each other and rub and bump into each other, static electricity is generated... that's the difference between a stagnant dead lake and a dynamic healthy lake... moving water..."

furam28 · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
Hey Rich
Carlson Surge Device... the Vortex squeezes the air column in the surge tank in the "whirlpool" as the surge device drains...
Look at Joe's Video at time 12:00 on...

Calling this microbubbling is a stretch and mildly dishonest. Its a few seconds of bubbles (not microbubbles) for visual effect only, and Joe clearly mentions at 13:00 that he "modified the plumbing to minimize the air getting in".

This is what bothers me about EC facebook page as well. Links and videos to random videos / scientific paper that has little to do with microbubble scrubbing in a reef environment.

Cruz_Arias · Mar 30, 2016

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
I cannot understand why you are even asking "on what" since I posted the exact sentences that I said were wrong.

For clarity, this exactly:

"Solubility of ions in a solution depend on electro negativity of the solute (water in this case)... water is not just water... it is a stream of life giving electricity..."

"The bubbles rubbing up against each other are like balloons or water droplets in the storm clouds... as they pass each other and rub and bump into each other, static electricity is generated... that's the difference between a stagnant dead lake and a dynamic healthy lake... moving water..."

I responded. I'm not sure if you're questioning if electrons are negative? Or if you're not agreeing that bubbles rubbing together generate static electric charge?

Cruz_Arias · Mar 30, 2016

furam28 said:
Calling this microbubbling is a stretch and mildly dishonest. Its a few seconds of bubbles (not microbubbles) for visual effect only, and Joe clearly mentions at 13:00 that he "modified the plumbing to minimize the air getting in".

This is what bothers me about EC facebook page as well. Links and videos to random videos / scientific paper that has little to do with microbubble scrubbing in a reef environment.

So you're looking for scientific style journalism in a social media site. That's an issue. LoL

furam28 · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
So you're looking for scientific style journalism in a social media site. That's an issue. LoL

No. I'm looking for intellectual honesty. When someone asks you "what public aquarium uses microbubble scrubbing" and your response is a 1-hour video showing a split second surge created for visual purposes only.... that my friend is a smoke screen.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
Named the Method... Kinda like the "PowerLift Technique" in the Chemical and Manufacturing industry teaching you how to "Lift Correctly"
http://www.safetytrainingnetwork.com/store/powerlift-lifting-training-that-works.

In regards to particulates including bubbles with a diaelectric as they rub up against anything including the water itself, there is a localized capacitance to the bubble itself.

In regards to solubility, if water was not polar, where there is a slight positive charge on the hydrogen end and a slight negative on the other.
For NaCl to dissolve there needs to be an electro-negative charge to water. being electrical we only look at e- as the energy carrier... because there is no such thing as an e+.

That is just not making chemical sense.

If you continue to claim them to be accurate, then I'll dissect your claims word for word to demonstrate the issues

"Solubility of ions in a solution depend on electro negativity of the solute (water in this case)... water is not just water... it is a stream of life giving electricity..."

First, water is the solvent and the salt is the solute, not what you have written.

Second, the solubility of salts relates in part to the dielectric constant of the solvent, not the electronegativity.

So are you talking about the electronegativity of the solvent (water, as you perhaps intend) or the solute (as you wrote)?

If water, then it does not make sense. Electronegativity is a property of an atom or ion in a chemical. In water, H and O each have a specific electronegativity. In sodium chloride, sodium and chlorine also each have a specific electronegativity. Water itself does not have an electronegativity, nor does any otrher whole molecule. So to say the solubility of something depends on the electronegativity of the solvent makes no sense since it isn't a term that can be applied to molecules like water.

If you mean the electronegativity of the salts, then it also doesn't make sense. If you meant the solubility depends ont he electronegativity difference between the ions in the salt, then it is just incorrect. Lithium fluoride has one of the greatest electronegativity differences of any two ions in an ionic compound, and yet its solubility is much less than sodium chloride.

The dielectric constant is a measure of how strongly two charges interact with each other when separated by a distance in a fluid that shields them from each other to some extent. So it can relate to solubility of ions.

Life giving electricity? I have no idea what that could possibly mean, so it is hard to say whether it is accurate or not.

So if I were to try to correct your sentence, it might read:

"Solubility of ions in a solution depend, in part, on the dielectric constant of the solvent (water in this case)... water is not just water... it is a stream of dissolved ions.."

furam28 · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
Regarding electricity static or otherwise, this was one that I think is pretty cool...

http://slideplayer.com/slide/2770735/

And this classic one... how static electricity can induce repulsion in a running stream of water, not a sitting cup of water.
http://www.wikihow.com/Bend-Water-with-Static-Electricity

I am curious. Is this in response to Randy's question about your pseudoscience claim "The bubbles rubbing up against each other are like balloons or water droplets in the storm clouds... as they pass each other and rub and bump into each other, static electricity is generated"

Not everything rubbing against each other creates static electricity. Cloth rubbing against a balloon does. Water bubbles rubbing against each other doesn't.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
Hype on what?

Regarding your second overhyped sentence...

"The bubbles rubbing up against each other are like balloons or water droplets in the storm clouds... as they pass each other and rub and bump into each other, static electricity is generated... that's the difference between a stagnant dead lake and a dynamic healthy lake... moving water..."

That is most definitely not why bubbles become charged in seawater. It is a very well studied field, and static electricity and movement of bubbles and bubbles bumping into one another has NOTHING to do with it.

This paper from 2014 discusses it in quite a lot of detail

On the nanobubbles interfacial properties and future applications in flotation
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0892687514000399
https://www.researchgate.net/public...operties_and_future_applications_in_flotation

In short, fine bubbles in water with a bit of sodium chloride in it have a net negative charge at most pH values above about 4.5, and a net positive charge below that value.

There are a number of chemical hypothesis to explain the details of why this happens, but the basic controlling event appears to be that hydroxide ion (with a negative charge) can approach the bubble surface more readily than can the proton (H+), so the bubbles carry the charge from the extra hydroxide ions unless the hydroxide ion concentration is solution is much lower than the H+ (meaning low pH).

As to your static charge assertions, seawater is a highly conductive medium relative to pure water, and seawater cannot hold a static charge. If there were a static charge generated somehow (usually that means transfer of electrons, but I'm not sure what you were hypothesizing for seawater), it would be instantly dissipated by movement of the ions in the water. Where would the electrons come from and where would they reside that would cause ions to move around and instantly deplete it?

On the lake comment, moving water transfers gases and that is the difference between a healthy lake and a stagnant lake: oxygen and other gas transfer. It has ZERO to do with static electricity.

cb684 · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
We utilize colorimetry in dynamic fluid piping here at the chemical company... Optek Colorimetry and Turbidity sensors.
The problem is, once motion stops, the bubbles have a chance to rise and dissipate or gets absorbed (depending on gas saturation of the water and temperature of the water)

What would be simpler is a "good/not good switch type of sensor" that only measures obscurance of light or light intensity based on particulates... NBs are particulates can be counted (refraction of light)

I might be wrong but I understand that micro-nano bubbles (less than 100 um) are quite stable and would potentially stay in the fluid without surface for hours to days. So that is why I thought to wait after the pump was off for 20 minutes (so that way larger bubbles will surface). The colorimeter should work as a turbidimeter and give us some number to compare micro-nano bubbles density added to the water. But I agree a flow turbidimeter would likely be more accurate.

Triggerjay · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias · Mar 30, 2016

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Regarding your second overhyped sentence...

"The bubbles rubbing up against each other are like balloons or water droplets in the storm clouds... as they pass each other and rub and bump into each other, static electricity is generated... that's the difference between a stagnant dead lake and a dynamic healthy lake... moving water..."

That is most definitely not why bubbles become charged in seawater. It is a very well studied field, and static electricity and movement of bubbles and bubbles bumping into one another has NOTHING to do with it.

This paper from 2014 discusses it in quite a lot of detail

On the nanobubbles interfacial properties and future applications in flotation
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0892687514000399
https://www.researchgate.net/public...operties_and_future_applications_in_flotation

In short, fine bubbles in water with a bit of sodium chloride in it have a net negative charge at most pH values above about 4.5, and a net positive charge below that value.

There are a number of chemical hypothesis to explain the details of why this happens, but the basic controlling event appears to be that hydroxide ion (with a negative charge) can approach the bubble surface more readily than can the proton (H+), so the bubbles carry the charge from the extra hydroxide ions unless the hydroxide ion concentration is solution is much lower than the H+ (meaning low pH).

As to your static charge assertions, seawater is a highly conductive medium relative to pure water, and seawater cannot hold a static charge. If there were a static charge generated somehow (usually that means transfer of electrons, but I'm not sure what you were hypothesizing for seawater), it would be instantly dissipated by movement of the ions in the water. Where would the electrons come from and where would they reside that would cause ions to move around and instantly deplete it?

On the lake comment, moving water transfers gases and that is the difference between a healthy lake and a stagnant lake: oxygen and other gas transfer. It has ZERO to do with static electricity.

Ok, Randy. Tranfer of electrons is electrical movement. Please understand that's how things dissolve in a solution.

Isn't that why we constantly circulate our make up water with a water pump to keep things in solution?

Moving solution has a higher solubility rate. Please refer to fluid dynamics and dynamic chemistry.

Thales · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
Not intentionally for the reasons I stated as visible observations of better water clarity, et cetera... but still doing it unaware is still doing it...

There was a guy I knew who stuttered when he was flustered... claims he doesn't.

That is disingenuous Cruz. Sometimes I pour defrosted fish food in tank water into my reef and it makes bubbles, I guess I am bubbling too.