Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

[Thales]

http://www.fondriest.com/environmental-measurements/parameters/water-quality/dissolved-oxygen/#13

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Thanks Randy that gives perspective on the conversation and brings new understanding. I understand more of where Richard is coming from and why he states things the way he does.
This helps me to "seek to understand before being understood". (Stephen Covey)

@ Thales,
"Let me be perfectly clear" to quote our President does not mean that I agree or subject my opinion to your methods or assumptions. I just understand some of the reasons you think like you do. This is just the beginning of seeking to understand...there may come a time that I will seek to be understood.

 

[Squamosa]

Nano bubbles"

We really need to move away from this term now, until someone quantifies the size of the smallest bubble the stone/pump method can produce.
Many people are getting hung up about this and it risks becoming put into the same category as electrolysis and salt water!

Let's call them micro shall we and move on...please

 

[chefjpaul]

We really need to move away from this term now, until someone quantifies the size of the smallest bubble the stone/pump method can produce.
Many people are getting hung up about this and it risks becoming put into the same category as electrolysis and salt water!

Let's call them micro shall we and move on...please

Bubbling-

IF, this method is anything tangible, in a few years the discussion will be about the size of bubbles one is producing in their tank, similar to every other piece of equipment used, as everyone will have a different opinion of what works best for them.

"My micro / nano bubbler is set to my apex to run @ 2:90am, it runs off of my $500.99 apex turbo deluxe bubbler module and I named my cat bubbles too"

 

[Squamosa]

A person can stay down there for an hour and come up without having the bends

Which dive tables are you using?

As a PADI IDC Staff instructor [HASHTAG]#606492[/HASHTAG],with some 20 years experience, I caution you in in giving this unsubstantiated statement of fact!

The PADI recreational dive planner or table, states that the maximum no decompression limit for recreational scuba divers at 66 feet is 40 minutes,if you exceed this time there are contingency plans you need to follow. I quote from the PADI manual.

'Emergency Decompression — If a no decompression limit is exceeded by no more than 5 minutes, an 8 minute decompression stop at 15ft is mandatory. Upon surfacing, the diver must remain out of the water for at least 6 hours prior to making another dive. If a no decompression limit is exceeded by more than 5 minutes, a 15ft decompression stop of no less than 15 minutes is urged (air supply permitting). Upon surfacing, the diver must remain out of the water for at least 24 hours prior to making another dive.'

I have seen people 'bend' from not following this rule!

Now if you clarify and state you were speaking about commercial dive tables, such as the US Navy Decompression Tables and Procedures or DCIEM or saturation diving procedures then that is another thing altogether.

 

[Squamosa]

home air environment is a bit different so pH effects of aeration can not only be different magnitudes

I think the evidence that has come out on the pH variations, show the need to 'flush' out excess CO2 from around our tanks and only strengthens the work you did and wrote about many years ago on this very point

 

[jedimasterben]

Starting tonight I will be testing just one aspect of this - the ability for the bubbles to actually move detritus. My tank has no issues with clarity or water quality that I am aware of, it is 100% soft corals at this point, so I don't even bother measuring nitrate or phosphate. The tank is barebottom and I have dual returns with eductors as my only source of flow. Flow is good, my rocks are physically lifted off the starboard by small frag disks so water flows under them, except detritus piles up in one spot under the eductors. Protein skimmer is a Coral Box D500 that is fully broken in and skimming well. I feed mostly NLS 1.0mm 'Finicky Fish Formula' pellets, around 1/2 teaspoon daily, and every other day I feed a 'cube and a half' sized chunk of a homemade frozen food, clams, mussel, shrimp, scallops.

Sorry, difficult to really get a good shot of this spot, but you can see about 1/3 of the total pile right there in front. The pile on the right is a pile of GSP mats I got today and will remove at some point, but the detritus pile does not extend to that point. I do not really do water changes, so I will not be siphoning out that pile any time soon, and at the very least not for the duration of the experiment.

I have a Tetra Whisper 40 air pump pushing into a Lee's airstone sitting next to my return pump, so a bunch of microbubbles (in no way nano) get into the display without the larger ones making it in. Bubbles will run from 12AM to 6AM.


I do have a hypothesis that one of my gorgonians (a specimen of Pseudopterogorgia bipinnata) will not survive the experiment. I have anecdotal experience with this gorgonian and my return pump sucking in some air when the sump gets low on water (no ATO is set up) and it dies back a bit every time. It is in the best health I've ever seen it as of the past month or so, so we will see what happens over the course of the experiment. I will report back after a few days with findings, and if I notice a reduction in the detritus pile, I will continue the experiment for a time, and then stop and see if the pile begins to return.

 

[Sabellafella]

So im guessing someone who considered micro bubbling cant keep clams?

 

[Squamosa]

after a few days with findings

Good lad
Plenty of pictures please, I don't care if they're taken on a mobile phone

 

[Reeflogic]

So im guessing someone who considered micro bubbling cant keep clams?

I just have one clam, 5" blue squamosa (I call him Tony) hahah, but no issues for the clam, I'm 2 weeks into bubbling.

 

[chaoticreefer]

Who was it that made a contraption out of PVC where you dremeled a slot and heat gun the flap down? Cruz, Squamosa, or Reefahholic? Forgive me, I can't find the video that I watched other day and I cant remember who it was that made it.

I have a question, I am in the process of DIY something similar and I was wondering the cap end, where the air tubing is fed through. Did you drilled a hole through the cap just big enough in order to get the tubing through? Or did you drilled a bigger hole so you can draw some water through too so the bubbles have some forward guidance towards the pump?

Also, what diameter of PVC did you used? I ended up using 2" PVC and was wondering if yours was similar in size.

 

[jedimasterben]

Day one observations.

The detritus pile is as large as ever, no change in its size, though one of my three conchs decided to push the stray GSP mats into it. Will remove the mats in a few minutes and tomorrow will start the new baseline pile size. The gorgonian I anticipated would be damaged by the treatment is as fluffy with PE today as it was yesterday pre-treatment, but I will be keeping an eye on it throughout. I have an extra ~150mL of skimmate in addition to what I had last night, which is more than normal. Unfortunately I don't really have any hard data on skimmate production pre-bubbling.

Also, which one of you turd heads said that this 'kills' dinoflagellate infestations? Because mine have been encysted for a month or two now, and I now have some snotty brown strings of Ostreopsis chillin out on some of my corals and gorgonians. I literally do this any time someone says that they have a 'cure' or something that 'kills' them.

 

[el aguila]

I'm presently reading through this thread - at page 17.

I have a Dart return that goes through 9'0" of pipe from my crawlspace tank room. It also supplies various reactors.

Not sure that I want to run the bubbles through this much PVC or through my reactors.

I guess that my best option would be to place an air diffuser close to the intake of one of my powerheads?

I hope to have an answer by the time I get through reading this thread.

 

[Waterjockey]

According to my experiences – this statement is not completely true. If you have to transport water in a pipe - the pressure will be the same through the whole pipe – it is not the same as if you dive down in the water as you describe it. It is the pressure in the pipes that important because the saturation point for every gas is higher under pressure. When this water come out in the aquarium – suddenly the water is under normal pressure (1 atm) and the gas will be oversaturated in the aquarium water. If the gas does not get consumed or aerated out – you will get problems. I have worked with system that transport pure oxygen at fish farms. The water has only been in the pipes for minutes but it has been possible to rise the oxygen content 2 – 3 times with only a pressure of 2 – 2,5 bar.

I have also experienced GBD in systems that has suck in air at the suction side, transport time 1 – 2 minutes and pressure 1,5 – 2 Bar. It is not the time the nitrogen gas will be in the pipes that’s important – it’s the time the oversaturation of N2 will stand in the open aquarium or fish tank (before it is aerated out) that is important

However – if aquarium pumps can create a pressure high enough is an open question. I believe that the most powerful return pumps can do it – so be careful. A high pressure pump at 3 bar – no question.

Sincerely Lasse

Hi Lassie, pressure in a piping system continually drops along the length of the system as you move further away from the prime mover (pump). This is due to things like pipe frictional losses, and is routinely calculated (pressure drop through system) when designing piping systems.

 

[Lasse]

Hi Lassie, pressure in a piping system continually drops along the length of the system as you move further away from the prime mover (pump). This is due to things like pipe frictional losses, and is routinely calculated (pressure drop through system) when designing piping systems.

Of course – you and BlueCursor are right and I´m wrong in this. Must has got a minor stroke when I wrote the statement

Maybe it´s time to change the last part of my signature

However I does not change my experiences of working with gas injected in water – I have been working with short pipe systems and lifting heights below 5 m. It is the pressure that’s most important in this case (How much gas you can put in order to saturate the water at actual pressure) – not so much the residence time. Of course - if you have a long piping system with lot of bends or high lifting height - the saturation point for the injected gas will change
with lower pressure and release gas already in the pipes. It is the pressure just before the water coming out in the tank which determines the level of super saturation in the tank IMO.


Sincerely Lasse

 

[Waterjockey]

Of course – you and BlueCursor are right and I´m wrong in this. Must has got a minor stroke when I wrote the statement

Maybe it´s time to change the last part of my signature

However I does not change my experiences of working with gas injected in water – I have been working with short pipe systems and lifting heights below 5 m. It is the pressure that’s most important in this case (How much gas you can put in order to saturate the water at actual pressure) – not so much the residence time. Of course - if you have a long piping system with lot of bends or high lifting height - the saturation point for the injected gas will change
with lower pressure and release gas already in the pipes. It is the pressure just before the water coming out in the tank which determines the level of super saturation in the tank IMO.


Sincerely Lasse

Hi Lassie. I have a difficult time reconciling the idea that there will be any supersaturation of gasses in a home reef pumping system. (a) They are very low pressure systems. (b) Contact time is minimal. (c) It's bubbles, which don't diffuse into the water well...even if some believe they are getting micro bubbles. Surface area is small and tension is high. Surface area and pressure are key...think of very thin large surface areas, and contact time for efficient gas exchange. I doubt "microbubble" entrainment ina home aquarium does very much for dissolved gasses. I have been trying it for a week or so as an experiment to see if it acts as a detrius binder/carrier though, and there does appear to be some merit via skimate. I will have to try a few weeks with and without and document skimate production and quality to have a quantitative answer as apposed to ancedodal though. I start documenting tomorrow with no bubble entrainment and go from there.

Cheers

 

[Waterjockey]

Micro-nanos are all bubbles in between the size of what's defined as Micro and what's defined as Nano...

Hence the term micro/nanobubbles

Nano bubbles are difficult to produce. I doubt there is much nano sized, if any, bubbles produced by home experimenters. Nano bubbles are considered stable entities and would remain in your water for weeks. Once you "clouded up" your tank, if they were truly "nano bubbles", I think you would be seriously upset at the result.

Cheers

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi Lassie. I have a difficult time reconciling the idea that there will be any supersaturation of gasses in a home reef pumping system. (a) They are very low pressure systems. (b) Contact time is minimal. (c) It's bubbles, which don't diffuse into the water well...even if some believe they are getting micro bubbles. Surface area is small and tension is high. Surface area and pressure are key...think of very thin large surface areas, and contact time for efficient gas exchange. I doubt "microbubble" entrainment ina home aquarium does very much for dissolved gasses. I have been trying it for a week or so as an experiment to see if it acts as a detrius binder/carrier though, and there does appear to be some merit via skimate. I will have to try a few weeks with and without and document skimate production and quality to have a quantitative answer as apposed to ancedodal though. I start documenting tomorrow with no bubble entrainment and go from there.

Cheers

I'm not sure I understand the basis of your comments.

Are you suggesting the surface tension is deterring gas exchange across the air/water interface? If so, why do you think it? Why would it?

The surface area to volume ratio is going up as the bubble size decreases, so equilibration of a small bubble will be a lot faster than a large one. A 1 micron bubble should equilibrate 100 times faster than a 100 micron bubble, based just on the basis of the surface area to volume ratio. Of course there are other effects, but the ones I know of, such as slow diffusion to and from the air/water interface through the water, will make smaller bubbles seem even faster to equilibrate than large ones.

Also, the contact time is not necessarily especially short for small bubbles, and may be substantially longer than large bubbles.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Nano bubbles are difficult to produce. I doubt there is much nano sized, if any, bubbles produced by home experimenters. Nano bubbles are considered stable entities and would remain in your water for weeks. Once you "clouded up" your tank, if they were truly "nano bubbles", I think you would be seriously upset at the result.

Cheers

Except you couldn't see them by eye anyway. The stable ones are like 20 nm. Way too small to see.

 

[McMullen]

If, theoretically nano bubbles were being produced, would there not eventually be so many tightly clumped together bubbles they become visible?