Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

[The Macro Guy]

It wouldn't be hard to get useful data, and to make it seem like folks are asking for the world is just exaggeration. A simple before and after measurement or picture would be very helpful. That isn't what is generally being posted to show effects. Growth over time doesn't really show anything if you do not know the growth without bubbling. All one needs to show is what exactly changed with bubbling. That is the only way one can evaluate whether the method is useful and how it compares to other methods trying to accomplish the same thing (like aeration by skimmer vs aeration by bubbles).

Ok so have any of the community members setup 2 identical tanks including all filtration and lighting to start testing or are they still either asking for the people that have gone through the trouble of testing this on their systems to either

A. Let their tanks go to crap for a little, then start scrubbing to see the results.
B. Setup 2 more tanks to prove that what they are doing on their DT works?

And ill be 100% with you, with the way some people are arguing about it, even that wouldn't be enough.

 

[The Macro Guy]

Here's a whole bunch of unsubstantiated stuff

From my days as a Zeohead!

We should setup 2 tanks and one system use that stuff for the next 2 years and another dont use anything other than reef crystals. We need proof that it colours significantly.

Actually I want a micro video of sps actually grabbing reef roid or any other coral food for that matter in the water column, not just the polyps retracting from a blast of water from a "spot" feed.

Lol...

 

[anit77]

We should setup 2 tanks and one system use that stuff for the next 2 years and another dont use anything other than reef crystals. We need proof that it colours significantly.

Actually I want a micro video of sps actually grabbing reef roid or any other coral food for that matter in the water column, not just the polyps retracting from a blast of water from a "spot" feed.

Lol...

I'm not sure what you're not getting. No one is saying there aren't benefits from micro-bubbling and that most people recently using this have seen some good results. The questions that are being brought up apply directly to the whole nano-bubble side of this.

You talk about expensive tests, doing years of comparisons and the like. There's only one test needed and it will cost less than $100 if someone already has the return pumps on hand. 2 20 gallon long tanks (That I'll pay for), 2 return pumps & some PVC plumbing, 1 air pump, 1 wood air diffuser, one green laser pointer & enough IO salt to make 40 gallons. Run the test and prove or disprove the existence of "Nano-bubbles" in the test tank compared to the control tank.

Nano's confirmed and we move on and discuss how to best utilize them.
Nano's absent in any volume and we stop talking about them period and move on to discuss the merits of micro-bubbling.

Petty simple eh?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok so have any of the naysayers setup 2 identical tanks including all filtration and lighting to start testing or are they still either asking for the people that have gone through the trouble of testing this on their systems to either

A. Let their tanks go to crap for a little, then start scrubbing to see the results.
B. Setup 2 more tanks to prove that what they are doing on their DT works?

And ill be 100% with you, with the way some people are arguing about it, even that wouldn't be enough.

Sorry, I'm not sure who you are referring to as a naysayer.

The word naysayer implies someone who says it doesn't work to perform some particular action. To be one, yes, you have to have a reason to say what you do, and negative tests could be a good way.

What I see in this thread are some folks asking for some evidence that it does work as some other folks are claiming. That is very different than being a naysayer, although not nearly so easy to dismiss. They are open to being convinced (as I am), but there's little to support many of the claims to date.

 

[Thales]

Ok so have any of the naysayers setup 2 identical tanks including all filtration and lighting to start testing or are they still either asking for the people that have gone through the trouble of testing this on their systems to either

A. Let their tanks go to crap for a little, then start scrubbing to see the results.
B. Setup 2 more tanks to prove that what they are doing on their DT works?

And ill be 100% with you, with the way some people are arguing about it, even that wouldn't be enough.

Again, it is up to the people making the claims to support the claims. And they haven't. It isn't up to anyone else to do their work for them. “That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

We should setup 2 tanks and one system use that stuff for the next 2 years and another dont use anything other than reef crystals. We need proof that it colours significantly.

Actually I want a micro video of sps actually grabbing reef roid or any other coral food for that matter in the water column, not just the polyps retracting from a blast of water from a "spot" feed.

Lol...

FWIW, you think bubbles are being treated differently, but that is most definitely not the case from me.

I constantly ask people who think things like iodine are helping their tank to experiment carefully by stopping for a while and see if anything changes. That is what I did to see if it was doing anything. I then went on to do more testing (like macroalgae growth rates vs iodine supplementing), but the "no effect in my tank" and others was convincing to me.

It is EXACTLY an analogous situation, and there are MANY products that wouldn't (don't) pass this test.

Bubbles very likely do pass such a simple evaluation for stabilization of O2 and CO2 levels in some aquaria. It would be hard to believe it wouldn't, but it may not be any more effective than a skimmer (maybe less so). That's why some are asking for actual data/experiences. To date that data is very limited.

It may help sweep cyano and dinos off of surfaces. That might work with huge bubbles even more effectively, although at risk of salt spray. This seems perfectly plausible and folks are reporting it seems helpful. This is a very promising set of experiences. Not yet complete, but a good start.

All the other claims, like coloration, growth rates,lack of harm to any organisms, etc. seems lacking in evidence (IMO). It may be real, but that is not yet evident.

As to the proposed mechanisms, those are where much of the disagreement lies, and no amount of "it works for me" will offset wildly inaccurate claims about how it is doing so.

 

[Thales]

Besides what Randy said

i dont see either of you jumping down Red Sea's throat as to whats in Reef Energy A&B and proof that our corals even utilize the amounts of it we put in our tanks, or any other "reef helper" so to speak.

You don't see that here because that isn't what this thread is about. There is a whole lot of questioning of a whole lot of methods and products happening other places, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening. Two other considerations regarding what gets scrutiny are 1) Is the idea being spammed in many places and 2) How extreme are the unsupported claims.
Here one of the things that has been spammed many places, it is filled with extreme unsupported claims:

 

[The Macro Guy]

People in this thread wanted proof microscrubbing worked, people gave proof of the method, then someone mentioned nano bubbles and that this produces SOME to an extent, now this thread has gone off the tracks to prove the nano bubbles exist without also showing the micro bubbles in the process. They are literally asking for a result that would be difficult to show even in a lab. You cant use a wooden airstone and JUST point out nano bubbles, the airstone generates all sizes of micro and micro nano bubbles.

You want to take this method to the extreme for stable testing, using YOUR time and YOUR $, then buy one of these

http://www.o2grow.com

Run it on your tank for half a year, and let us know how it worked out for you.

 

[anit77]

People in this thread wanted proof microscrubbing worked, people gave proof of the method, then someone mentioned nano bubbles and that this produces SOME to an extent, now this thread has gone off the tracks to prove the nano bubbles exist without also showing the micro bubbles in the process. They are literally asking for a result that would be difficult to show even in a lab. You cant use a wooden airstone and JUST point out nano bubbles, the airstone generates all sizes of micro and micro nano bubbles.

You want to take this method to the extreme for stable testing, using YOUR time and YOUR $, then buy one of these

http://www.o2grow.com

Run it on your tank for half a year, and let us know how it worked out for you.

Man you're making it quite hard to have an intelligent conversation with.

No, I'm not stating that nano bubbles don't exist. What I am saying is that the only true proof of them being created is by using high pressure pumps or by directly injecting bubbles at a depth that is beyond what we have in home aquaria. To add to that the only test using true nano's and live organisms that I am aware of was done in Tokyo harbor. In the harbor there's the whole friggin ocean to disperse any over saturated gases. That's not so in the tanks we have.

FWIW I already have one of these systems. http://www.keepalive.net/oxygen/
Nowhere in any of their marketing do the say "Nano bubbles" Neither this system or the o2grow system create nano bubbles.
I will tell you that if the Keepalive system is set at too high of a setting, say 1/4L per minute, in a 30 gallon bait tank that the water will be super saturated and a couple dozen blueback herring will be all dead in less than 4 hours. Ask me how I know...

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Guys, seriously...please refrain from personal attacks. If you haven't read the terms and rules of this site in a while, please take a break from this thread and go check these out so that you'll know what is allowed and what is not. Thanks.

 

[cu455]

Macro bubbles will help rid your tank of ich. It knocks the parasite off the fish. This causes the parasite to die before it can reproduce. T he macro bubbles will knock the eggs off the rocks and sand. The eggs will then attach to the negatively charged bubbles and rise to the surface, where it will go down the overflow. Your filter socks will catch some of the eggs/parasites as well as your skimmer. The negative charge on the bubbles will destroy the ability for the fetus to grow and for the parasites to reproduce. Kind of like a UV sterilizer works.

Micro bubbles attack ich from many different angles and is the quickest way to cure a tank. You need bubble sizes smaller then 20 microns for it to work.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Micro bubbles attack ich from many different angles and is the quickest way to cure a tank. You need bubble sizes smaller then 20 microns for it to work.

FWIW, I'm not saying this isn't true, but how do you know this?

 

[cu455]

FWIW, I'm not saying this isn't true, but how do you know this?

It sounds good plus a fish store posted it on his Facebook page .

 

[brandon429]

summary of powerful claims so far in bubbling:

cures Dinoflagellate invasions, such that having dinos is now optional. any tank, any arrangement of variables, any tank size, just bubble and be dino free.


cures ich

all the fallow runs, detailed scientific analyses of hosts/parasites et al no longer needed. bubble, have no ich.


next up
cease water changes forever, allowing double bioloading and no tank export, ever, solely from bubbling. This isn't being mean, just framing things sarcastically lol. ive made claims too in threads people could hack up, thick skin peeps we'll be ok

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I´m for the moment between tanks but there is a special tank ordered. It will set up this tank so I can test different types of husbandry and cleaning technology. And for sure – after this discussion I´ll take the bubble scrubbing method under consideration when I design the tank.

Sincerely Lasse

PLEASE start a build thread once you get the new tank. I would love to follow your reef!

 

[reef_ranch]

People in this thread wanted proof microscrubbing worked, people gave proof of the method, then someone mentioned nano bubbles and that this produces SOME to an extent, now this thread has gone off the tracks to prove the nano bubbles exist without also showing the micro bubbles in the process. They are literally asking for a result that would be difficult to show even in a lab. You cant use a wooden airstone and JUST point out nano bubbles, the airstone generates all sizes of micro and micro nano bubbles.

You want to take this method to the extreme for stable testing, using YOUR time and YOUR $, then buy one of these

http://www.o2grow.com

Run it on your tank for half a year, and let us know how it worked out for you.

With all due respect Macro guy, no one has proved that "Microscrubbing" worked. What we have is pictures of tanks that are using microbubble injection. And there are many more pictures of successful vibrant tanks without bubble injection. Neither set of pictures proves that any particular husbandry technique is the reason for the success.

It would be great if one of you who have successful tanks with the injection would stop injecting for a period of time, while maintaining the same husbandry, and record the changes in the tank. If nothing changes, then it would show that the microbubbles are likely not the reason why the tanks were doing so well (note the use of the term "likely", more testing and analysis might lead to a different conclusion). On the other hand, if the tank went to hell, then it would go a long way to showing that micro bubbles ARE working. The next step would be to try to understand why they were working -- stabilizing ph, increasing orp, exporting nutrients, or some other mechanism caused by the bubbles.

If you or Squamosa or anyone else with successful tanks using bubble injection want to perform this experiment , I'm willing to take it from the other direction and start bubbling in my already stable and healthy tank and record my results. And maybe some others with tanks that are having issues would start bubbling (making no other changes to their husbandry) and record their changes. Maybe we'll learn something about this method and end all of this back and forth. So far all we're learning about is the scientific method. Let's put it in practice.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It sounds good plus a fish store posted it on his Facebook page .

OK, I assume that is sarcasm.

 

[flyinryan75]

From a rookie stand point would it be better if the nano/microbubbles were gradually introduced instead of running them 4-8 hrs a night right off the get go? This being like anything else in the hobby "take it slow" and no drastic changes.?.?
Oh and what do the acronyms of PE and ORP mean? Thanks in advance!

 

[Rybren]

PE = Polyp Extension
ORP = Oxygen Redox Potential

I take it that your tank is relatively new. Are you having any issues that would warrant trying bubbling?

If your tank is new, I would recommend letting it mature before trying a new technique such as bubbling.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

@Thales,
What is your job title at the Public Aquarium with your nine years of experiance?

I have been a member of a medical family all my life but that does not qualify me to practice medicine. I have built and provided aquariums to thousands of customers but that does not qualify me as an fish expert. However, I do know something about design and success keeping aquariums. I hold a general contractors licenses for two states but that does not qualify me for building a skyscraper or a house. I have a couple of degrees but that does not qualify me to teach. I have taught techniques and classes to others but that does not make me an expert whose opinion is the final answer. I have done full mouth rehabilitaion cases on many patients but that does not make me a Dentist.

While being a skeptic is not a complete disadvantage it may prevent you from humility and the ability to learn from others. I am considered an expert in many areas but I just learned to provide a better finished product yesterday from someone who does concrete work. I do not work with concrete but his observations and comments helped solve a problem I was having finishing another product. Arrogance and skepticism are often the cause of my own demise. Hope you can understand that "a word from the wise is sufficient" is good advice to consider. I would be foolish to call myself wise since I was just schooled yesterday from someone outside of my expertise.

You state your opinions with the weight of an expert and seem to be pretty hard on those who disagree with you. This is a hobbiest forum and we are all at different levels of experiance and ability. Please show a little more consideration to others in the exchange. If you have made your point move on.

From one skeptic to another I wish you well!