Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

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Tautog

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We do not use membranes and blowers in a couple of our pilot plants utilizing ACTIVE DAF Systems. The digesting and trickle filtering works... but takes up way too much space.
As the population increases, the biological load increases... Hence we need to be more efficient in methodology.

http://www.ecologixsystems.com/dissolved-air-flotation-system.php
Do you live in the Long Island area
Hi guys,

What do you think of this:
nice find T, separation from hydrogen and oxygen makes a lot of sense, not more bubbles, the separations of these atoms is cool, but really, it's a fish/coral tank. If my theory, moving the surface to create more O2 is correct, I guess that's why rivers, fast moving rivers, contain a ton of O2.
 
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Tautog

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Fair enough!
Hey Cruz, please don't use that word Eletroisl
I was not argue against your experiences – I only put in my experiences of really measure different things of aeration in contrast to Thales statement. I´m convinced of that small bubbles are able to oxygenate water during certain circumstances.

However – my first sentence was wrong written. It should bee “For a normal aquarium - yes - the gas exchange happens when the popping bubbles reach the surface and create a large interface between the water and air or/and through heavy water circulation in the surface” .

And please Cruz_Arias Do not Scream to me!!!!

Sincerely Lasse

(for Cruz_Arias SINCERELY Lasse ) :)
ok Lasse, you used a bad word, Electrolysis, I saw the video, I know that makes total sense, but really, do we want to go there? I own a boat, love to fish, using electrolysis in my DT? Hope your grounded. In boating, we use zincs to try to stop electrolysis. To add this to your DT, my worries just exploded. Electrolysis is evil, in this application ok, but would look long and hard for another method. Electrolysis destroys metals to death. Back in the college days, we used this method of atom separation to induce plant growth over a pool of fish we were farming. This method destroyed our project. Our pool rusted out of control, and yes, the pool was grounded, but it didn't seem to matter. After setting up another pool, we used a whirlpool method to move water in a circular fashion around the pool to increase O2. It worked great, grew big fish, trout, and even our vegetables above the pool grew crazy, with bigger fruits.
 

Squamosa

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pool of fish we were farming
I hope it was freshwater fish?

People seem to miss the very important part of the electrolysis of salt water, which is, at the anode you will bubble chlorine gas, great for your swimming pool, bad for your reef tank!

I think it's time to put this red herring to bed!
 

cb684

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Ok I got the micro-nano nozzle, now waiting for the pump. I think I will get a O2 cylinder, I am afraid to use that nozzle with air. For that to work it will need to be under pressure (45PSI), so there is a real chance of increasing nitrogen concentration, right? LOL this is getting complicated, but still very interested to see what the micro-nano bubbles will do.
 
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Lasse

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[
ok Lasse, you used a bad word, Electrolysis, I saw the video, I know that makes total sense, but really, do we want to go there? I own a boat, love to fish, using electrolysis in my DT? Hope your grounded. In boating, we use zincs to try to stop electrolysis. To add this to your DT, my worries just exploded. Electrolysis is evil, in this application ok, but would look long and hard for another method. Electrolysis destroys metals to death. Back in the college days, we used this method of atom separation to induce plant growth over a pool of fish we were farming. This method destroyed our project. Our pool rusted out of control, and yes, the pool was grounded, but it didn't seem to matter. After setting up another pool, we used a whirlpool method to move water in a circular fashion around the pool to increase O2. It worked great, grew big fish, trout, and even our vegetables above the pool grew crazy, with bigger fruits.
I big miss understanding. I was trying not to be rude to the guy that propose the method and just friendly ask for by-products of the method. I know that chlorine gas likely will be formed if you use this method in saltwater. My plan was to following up my post but Squamosa posted the warning directly so I decide not to do that.

If my theory, moving the surface to create more O2 is correct, I guess that's why rivers, fast moving rivers, contain a ton of O2.
You are right. It is the enlarged interface area between water and air you get when a river is fast running and has a lot of rapids and waterfalls that cause the high oxygen saturation.

Sincerely Lasse
 

cb684

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It's all well and good you are running this, but I will caution you again, to watch the fish, as you might start moving into high dissolved O2 states and this will certainly be detrimental to the fish :eek:
Why would you be concerned with high O2 concentrations harming the fish? I thought that most of the work with micro bubbles and fish were done using O2. Did I miss something?
 

Squamosa

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Why would you be concerned with high O2 concentrations harming the fish? I thought that most of the work with micro bubbles and fish were done using O2. Did I miss something?
Air cylinder or O2 cylinder?
I believe you said O2 cylinder!

There's literature out there that shows a correlation between injecting air or O2 under pressure into water and gas bubble disease in fish!
 

Squamosa

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Why would you be concerned with high O2 concentrations harming the fish? I thought that most of the work with micro bubbles and fish were done using O2. Did I miss something?
Just a friendly caution to be on the lookout for sick fish, (if you have fish at all in the tank), lest we go down the same path as we did a few days ago with GBD :D
 

reefwiser

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Has anyone done ICP testing on their water before and after micro bubble sessions. To see if their is a difference in chemistry? Need to get a reason to why things work and why. People did this method over 30 years ago and people said the same things about it. Need to find out what is or is not happening. We have testing today that we didn't back in the day to give us a better understanding.
 
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Lasse

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I have been injected pure oxygen to pressure pipes (2-3 bar) without any problems with bubble diseases in fresh water fish. It is a normal procedure at fish farms. But I have never been higher than 125 % supersaturation of O2 in the fish tanks. I have not done it with salt water species but I have not seen any reports that it should be any problems with pure oxygen.

However – if air is injected – there is tons of information about bubble disease. The main reason is the 80 % content of nitrogen gas in air


Sincerely Lasse
 

cb684

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Just a friendly caution to be on the lookout for sick fish, (if you have fish at all in the tank), lest we go down the same path as we did a few days ago with GBD :D
Lasse has stated a few times his experience with O2, and warned about N2. That is why I thought it would be safer with pure O2. I also remember that some of the material talking about nano bubbles and fish were saying oxygen, and not air.
I just found this article saying that oxygen will cause GBD if 850% supersaturated [Edited: (for fish 850% and for shrimp 250%)]. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1577/1548-8659(1976)38[158:GDDTOS]2.0.CO;2?journalCode=uzpf20
 

McMullen

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In case someone is just coming to the regress and doesn't want to read everything we need a summary thus far.

Where are and what have we gained?

My take is bubbling improves gas exchange. Does improve better than a powerhead pointed towards water surface/surface agitation? Not sure.

Bubbling very likely is safe for all fish and inverts "commonly" kept by hobbiest. This is supported well anecdotally!

Bubbling causes coral to slime, some suspect this is good, but we know sliming is a protective mechanism for coral and replacing requires energy. It may allow them
To shed toxins and who know, pests. We simply don't know.

Bubbling likely eliminates "cyano." This is supported anecdotally. Mechanism? Not sure, but if it works, fantastic!

Bubbling may improve water clarity. This of course would be depending on individual tanks particulate matter, but supported anecdotally. Again, if struggling with this problem, try bubbling.

This is where my mind is. I didn't list all the claims made because frankly, some seem "out there!" If I missed something please add or correct.
 

Greenstreet.1

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Well you know where I stand I'm just reading these days and wait to see when some of the Big Questions will be answered. I'm not will to take the chance with my sticks as no one has any long term results yet and all others are just assuming
 
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anit77

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Don't get me wrong, I think this probably works great. I will probably be micro-bubbling once I get my tank up and running.

My only questions pertain to the "Nano" side of this discussion. I think some of those claims border on outlandish. We don't even know whether or not we can create nano's of any volume with what is commonly available to us equipment wise. It seems those questions are hard to answer.
 

Rybren

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QUOTE Dissolved gas supersaturation (DGS) is a condition
that occurs when the partial pressures of
atmospheric gases in solution exceed their
respective partial pressures in the atmosphere. Individual
atmospheric dissolved gases (oxygen, nitrogen, and trace
gases such as argon and carbon dioxide) can often be
supersaturated without adverse effects on aquatic and
marine organisms. When the sum of the partial pressures
of all dissolved gases exceeds atmospheric pressure,
however, there is the potential for gas bubbles to develop
in water and in the aquatic organisms that inhabit the
water. This causes a condition known as gas bubble
trauma (GBT).

DGS can result from various anthropogenic and natural
causes. Hydroelectric and impoundment dams are known
to cause high levels of DGS. Other sources include warm
water discharges from cooling facilities (e.g., nuclear and
fossil fuel powered generating plants), oxygen production
by aquatic plants (enhanced by nutrients associated with
industrial effluents, municipal discharges, and agricultural
runoff), natural solar heating of water bodies, injection of
air into pumping systems, supplemental oxygen in
hatcheries, and air lift reaeration systems
. UNQUOTE

Bolding is mine for emphasis. This text is an excerpt from the
Canadian Water Quality Guidelines for the Protection
of Aquatic Life


The document highlights a number of findings relating to GBT-caused mortality rates in both fresh water and marine fishes and invertebrates. It also provides guidelines for maximum allowable dissolved gas tension as a function of water depth and partial pressure of dissolved oxygen (mm Hg).

While beyond the scope of my expertise, it would be wonderful if we could do the measurements discussed in the Guidelines to see where we stand with respect to the injection of nano/micro/nanomicro bubbles into our aquaria.

It would be one issue surrounding the bubble talk that we could put to bed.
 

MaccaPopEye

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This is getting out of hand. I have been following this thread quietly for about a bit over a week now because I am quite interested in this method and think the idea behind it is plausible and would love it if the claims were true, however the way that the claims have been spammed all over facebook and other forums by some people and especially the wording used in those claims rings big alarm bells in my head and took me from wanting to try it, to being very wary of this.

There are some really good points in this thread which help to further this idea but unfortunately there are a lot of posts which are one sided, closed minded and do nothing but clog up a possibly good thread.

IMO Thales has done nothing but encourage people to look into this idea in a way that it can gain some proper credibility and remove the scepticism that was caused by using "magical" claims with suspicious wording and no solid proof. While a control tank and a bubbling tank with as many control variables as possible would be the most ideal situation (IMO if anyone wants to patent items to sell in regards to this method they should have this data as a minimum ready before they start selling items to help bubbling) Thales has suggested many times other, much easier data that can be produced that would lend credibility to this method. And it seems Cruz_Arias has finally agreed that some basic tests and data will help! So can we get this thread back on track with proof of what bubbling does and how it works?

But quickly on a side note about electrolysis, do a search on reef central for a thread called "The Farm". It is about a coral farm in Australia and I am 99% sure they mentioned that they use very low voltage electrolysis to get their frags to grow really fast. They don't say everyone should use this method as I am pretty sure they are still working out the kinks and perfecting it and I am not sure if they have done any comparisons of fags in a control system vs using electrolysis but it sounded very interesting so I would not just write it off as not possible in reef tanks.
I hope it was freshwater fish?

People seem to miss the very important part of the electrolysis of salt water, which is, at the anode you will bubble chlorine gas, great for your swimming pool, bad for your reef tank!

I think it's time to put this red herring to bed!
Cheers,

Macca
 
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