Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

[Jizu Puentes]

Besides my sponges I am also curious if the bubbles would negatively affect clams. Any of you guys try it in a system with clams? Sounds like some experimentation needs to be done here...but not with my tank haha

 

[fab]

Randy,

Entrained air in a fluid flow through a pump does not cause cavitation. It can, however, have degrading effects on pump operation and longevity.

Please see my posts at the two links below. They are adjacent to each other and flow in the order of these links:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/micro-bubbling.220404/
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/micro-bubbling.220404/#post-2820431

The second post deals directly with your question, but came about because of an erroneous statement I had made in the first post of the two.
fab

 

[The Macro Guy]

As far as bubbles in the pump reducing life. The pump is not processing anywhere near as many bubbles as a skimmer pump does.

I have been using this process with clams and sponges in my tank. As posted earlier all are fine and growing. If you would like to wait a few months before trying this, I will post again at a later date on if my clam has died or not. So far @ 2 1/2-3 months on the clam.

 

[fab]

The pump is not processing anywhere near as many bubbles as a skimmer pump does.

You are absolutely right and ...

Centrifugal pumps can be designed to handle entrained air well. Problems only arise when they are not designed for that and are operated in conditions that the entrained air produces unstable flow inside the pump that sets off mechanically eccentric rotation of the impellers. An off-center, sloppy rotation does damage. No entrainment problem for pumps that have the right designs for its internal components.

 

[Robink]

Following.

 

[Lowstorm]

So even though I'm still fish and coral less, I have to say my water was amazingly clear. It's not today due to a slight bacteria bloom (whoops) but overall it's melding pretty seamlessly with my setup. And the bac bloom is my fault. I kinda sorta double dosed my carbon kinda 2 days in a row.

 

[Jizu Puentes]

So even though I'm still fish and coral less, I have to say my water was amazingly clear. It's not today due to a slight bacteria bloom (whoops) but overall it's melding pretty seamlessly with my setup. And the bac bloom is my fault. I kinda sorta double dosed my carbon kinda 2 days in a row.

Without fish or coral it makes sense that your tank would be clear. What would be the benefit of running microbubbles in a fallow tank?

 

[Lowstorm]

It's not fallow. I make my tanks downright disgusting when I'm cycling them. That way I know my tank can handle fish n corals. The first time I did it I went from not really seeing stuff to OMG where did all that crap come from?!?!?! The next morning my water was way clearer. It's hard to understand. But it just picks up alllllll the little floating particles and keeps them suspended in the water so well!

 

[Jizu Puentes]

It's not fallow. I make my tanks downright disgusting when I'm cycling them. That way I know my tank can handle fish n corals. The first time I did it I went from not really seeing stuff to OMG where did all that crap come from?!?!?! The next morning my water was way clearer. It's hard to understand. But it just picks up alllllll the little floating particles and keeps them suspended in the water so well!

Your tank big fish less would make it a fallow tank. That makes sense about the fine particles

 

[eatbreakfast]

This is what forums are supposed to do. Allow Informed Discussion...

....To determine the benefits one has to do a closed regulated study...Even an engineer would agree...

Not entirely true.

For possible comparison consider chicken soup. It has been long understood that chicken soup is good for someone that has a cold or the flu, long before a closed, regulated study. It was just based off of observations by regular people that noticed an improvement of systems. Even with studies being done on the correlation of chicken soup and it's benefits for the cold and flu, it is still only theorized why, not being fully understood, just recognized that it does indeed have benefits.

Or perhap look at the reefing community which noticed that keeping mg to a certain level using Kent tech m helped keep bryopsis at bay. As far as I know there are theories why it worked, but no concrete reasons. But it also was based off of observations and it worked.

In the case of microbubbles there is starting to be enough of a sample of people trying it and starting to be for a long enough period of time. I haven't heard of anyone that tried it that had negative affects. In fact it has nearly unanimously been noticed to have positive affects. Now some of this, no doubt, is because those that are utilizing this method are looking for good results. However, not all the observations can, nor should be discounted, especially in cases where there is at least some documentation of it's result.

That's also not to say that if there are good results being reported that we all need to switch to this method, as there are plenty of ways to successfully reef. It's just that we don't need to definitively have to know how something exactly works to notice it's benefits.

 

[Thales]

Not entirely true.

For possible comparison consider chicken soup. It has been long understood that chicken soup is good for someone that has a cold or the flu, long before a closed, regulated study. It was just based off of observations by regular people that noticed an improvement of systems. Even with studies being done on the correlation of chicken soup and it's benefits for the cold and flu, it is still only theorized why, not being fully understood, just recognized that it does indeed have benefits.

Not understood, thought. It seems the benefits are not from the soup itself, rather from placebo and conformation bias. There are a million other things that people have thought have an effect that don't or that actually have a negative effect. Finding out if something actually does what people say it does is a benefit of the scientific method.

Or perhap look at the reefing community which noticed that keeping mg to a certain level using Kent tech m helped keep bryopsis at bay. As far as I know there are theories why it worked, but no concrete reasons. But it also was based off of observations and it worked.

That is forgetting all the people it did not work for. I know of at least 3 people that methodically tested it and had no remission of bryopsis, and I know a lot more that didn't methodically test it. It is hit and miss, and has not be shown to actually work reliably.

In the case of microbubbles there is starting to be enough of a sample of people trying it and starting to be for a long enough period of time. I haven't heard of anyone that tried it that had negative affects. In fact it has nearly unanimously been noticed to have positive affects. Now some of this, no doubt, is because those that are utilizing this method are looking for good results. However, not all the observations can, nor should be discounted, especially in cases where there is at least some documentation of it's result.

That's also not to say that if there are good results being reported that we all need to switch to this method, as there are plenty of ways to successfully reef. It's just that we don't need to definitively have to know how something exactly works to notice it's benefits.

We have to have better evidence to support extreme claims. Anecdote is notoriously mistaken. Anecdote is a good starting point for research, but there needs to be more. We have seen so many products/methods in our hobby that people swear make things 'better' but then the fads go away because there is no actual evidence of the claims and people eventually learn that they get the same results without the extra work. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. :D

 

[potatocouch]

Test this in a pico tank and run the micro nano scrubbing technique with cheap corals and put some damsels there. Experience speaks louder than words.

 

[Thales]

Test this in a pico tank and run the micro nano scrubbing technique with cheap corals and put some damsels there. Experience speaks louder than words.

Do two of them. Set them up the same. Do it with with one and not the other. Test and compare. Photograph growth and compare.

 

[blusop]

Some of you know me ...some don't. ..i micro bubble...i also have a clam...no problems. ..i also use No Carbon and No Carbon Source....

 

[blusop]

I also have 30 fish in my system...and they are all fine as well....this technique is nothing new...Public Aquariums have been doing this for years...it's just now being used by home aquarist because of EC posting on fb and other areas

 

[blusop]

Not understood, thought. It seems the benefits are not from the soup itself, rather from placebo and conformation bias. There are a million other things that people have thought have an effect that don't or that actually have a negative effect. Finding out if something actually does what people say it does is a benefit of the scientific method.



That is forgetting all the people it did not work for. I know of at least 3 people that methodically tested it and had no remission of bryopsis, and I know a lot more that didn't methodically test it. It is hit and miss, and has not be shown to actually work reliably.



We have to have better evidence to support extreme claims. Anecdote is notoriously mistaken. Anecdote is a good starting point for research, but there needs to be more. We have seen so many products/methods in our hobby that people swear make things 'better' but then the fads go away because there is no actual evidence of the claims and people eventually learn that they get the same results without the extra work. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. :D

That's why my system is flourishing WITHOUT CARBON, CARBON SOURCE, NO AMINO ACIDS....because i DIDN'T fall for those EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS lol of those things being beneficial to my reef...

 

[redwingrob40]

Some of you know me ...some don't. ..i micro bubble...i also have a clam...no problems. ..i also use No Carbon and No Carbon Source....

Great looking tank!!!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

From Elegant Corals, LLC
and we can get lost in the amount of literature and chemical electric reactions that occur in moving (dynamic) water versus static benchtop chemistry...

Solubility of ions in a solution depend on electro negativity of the solute (water in this case)... water is not just water... it is a stream of life giving electricity...

The bubbles rubbing up against each other are like balloons or water droplets in the storm clouds... as they pass each other and rub and bump into each other, static electricity is generated... that's the difference between a stagnant dead lake and a dynamic healthy lake... moving water...

FWIW, in our discussions we might want to distinguish reasonable claims for bubbling the tank with those that verge on ridiculous claims you see on late night television.

IMO, those above fall into that category, and it is quite disappointing to see such comments.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's why my system is flourishing WITHOUT CARBON, CARBON SOURCE, NO AMINO ACIDS....because i DIDN'T fall for those EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS lol of those things being beneficial to my reef...

Sorry, I'm not understanding. Are you being sarcastic?

 

[CoralNerd]

FWIW, in our discussions we might want to distinguish reasonable claims for bubbling the tank with those that verge on ridiculous claims you see on late night television.

IMO, those above fall into that category, and it is quite disappointing to see such comments.

You might need to write a new article on how to get rid of dinoflagellates. I tried dosing kalkwasser and brought the ph up to 8.5+ for many days but this didn't work. I also tried running gfo, carbon, dosing bacteria and days of black outs. What did work is when I ran the micro bubble method and dosed bacteria. [emoji106] thanks Elegant Corals this is my second week of no dinoflagellates (the bubble stringy brown stuff that goes away at night and comes back during the day).

I'm continuing to run the micro bubbles at night for a few hours. I have a mixed reef, sps dominated and even have a purple plating sponge and none of my corals have suffered. Instead they have grown and look healthy. [emoji118] [emoji41]