Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

[The Macro Guy]

FWIW, in our discussions we might want to distinguish reasonable claims for bubbling the tank with those that verge on ridiculous claims you see on late night television.

IMO, those above fall into that category, and it is quite disappointing to see such comments.

-Clear water, less funk
-Better polyp extension in sps
-More skimmate production
-Less algae on rocks and glass
-Helps treat cyano/diatoms/dinos
-More stable PH at night.

I can say for sure these are the positives I've seen on my tanks.

 

[b4tn]

So I for one come to these forums to learn. There are a lot of very smart people here with very successful reefs. But this thread went from "look at all the people that have had success" to "where's the scientific proof" and arguing back and forth. I started researching this method of Dino removal a month ago and while I have yet to try it I see a very high success rate with no negative results, to no success with no negative results.

Rather than argue it's not scientifically proven why don't the smart guys (whom I have a lot of respect for) prove it wrong? I don't have the time nor the resources otherwise I would do it myself. No disrespect to anyone but why not be productive and prove it vs dismissing it from the get go instead of arguing?

 

[furam28]

So I for one come to these forums to learn. There are a lot of very smart people here with very successful reefs. But this thread went from "look at all the people that have had success" to "where's the scientific proof" and arguing back and forth. I started researching this method of Dino removal a month ago and while I have yet to try it I see a very high success rate with no negative results, to no success with no negative results.

Rather than argue it's not scientifically proven why don't the smart guys (whom I have a lot of respect for) prove it wrong? I don't have the time nor the resources otherwise I would do it myself. No disrespect to anyone but why not be productive and prove it vs dismissing it from the get go instead of arguing?

So you want the smart guys here to turn their tanks into experimental tanks? Every time someone comes up with a miracle product and some trumped up claims these smart guys should risk their perfectly established tanks and run trials? Trust me. No sane reefer will do that.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You might need to write a new article on how to get rid of dinoflagellates. I tried dosing kalkwasser and brought the ph up to 8.5+ for many days but this didn't work. I also tried running gfo, carbon, dosing bacteria and days of black outs. What did work is when I ran the micro bubble method and dosed bacteria. [emoji106] thanks Elegant Corals this is my second week of no dinoflagellates (the bubble stringy brown stuff that goes away at night and comes back during the day).
]

That's great to hear! Dinos are a big problem and it would be good to have more tools! :)

 

[b4tn]

Of course not. But as mentioned several times before this is not anything new. Additionally several guys who have been reefing for years have multiple tanks. Unlike the folks like me who only have one and barely have the time to maintain that. The point is stop arguing and work together for proof.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

-Clear water, less funk
-Better polyp extension in sps
-More skimmate production
-Less algae on rocks and glass
-Helps treat cyano/diatoms/dinos
-More stable PH at night.

I can say for sure these are the positives I've seen on my tanks.

Thanks. Those are very reasonable and clear claims. :)

 

[furam28]

Thanks. Those are very reasonable and clear claims. :)

I'm a little iffy with the "better PE" part. Every new reef product in the market now likes to slap that claim on to their product. You can even add that claim to a bottle of Alk. Sure, if your alk was low, and dosing alk brought it to normal levels, you will see better PE.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm a little iffy with the "better PE" part. Every new reef product in the market now likes to slap that claim on to their product. You can even add that claim to a bottle of Alk. Sure, if your alk was low, and dosing alk brought it to normal levels, you will see better PE.

I'm not suggesting the result is a benefit, or even that it is true, just that it is testable and plausible, rather than some of the obviously incorrect pseudoscience that Elegant Corals LLC posts, such as:

"Solubility of ions in a solution depend on electro negativity of the solute (water in this case)... water is not just water... it is a stream of life giving electricity..."

and

"The bubbles rubbing up against each other are like balloons or water droplets in the storm clouds... as they pass each other and rub and bump into each other, static electricity is generated... that's the difference between a stagnant dead lake and a dynamic healthy lake... moving water..."

 

[ermartin]

Thanks. Those are very reasonable and clear claims. :)

I agree and i have seen very positive results all the way around. I can not comment on "Helps treat cyano/diatoms/dinos" as I do not actually have that issue. but I can say i have some corals that have been slow to show color that are actually showing a rapid change right now. So im pretty happy. I mean im no expert here I still consider myself a rookie after over 20 years in reefing and over 40 years in the aquarium hobby. If i could only learn to use a camera correctly using LED's now

 

[furam28]

I'm not suggesting the result is a benefit, or even that it is true, just that it is testable and plausible, rather than some of the obviously incorrect pseudoscience that Elegant Corals LLC posts, such as:

"Solubility of ions in a solution depend on electro negativity of the solute (water in this case)... water is not just water... it is a stream of life giving electricity..."

and

"The bubbles rubbing up against each other are like balloons or water droplets in the storm clouds... as they pass each other and rub and bump into each other, static electricity is generated... that's the difference between a stagnant dead lake and a dynamic healthy lake... moving water..."

They should go all Deepak Chopra and throw some quantum physics in there as well while they are at it!

 

[fab]

Anyone worried about destroying their return pump impellers from cavitation with all the air going into the return pump?

Wondering about cavitation here?
Check my post:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/micro-bubbling.220404/

and this link references two other posts on this topic that you might find valuable.
These posts do not voice opinion. They are just straightforward background facts to help in these discussions on air blasting, micro bubbles and such.

 

[brandon429]

anyone who feels micro bubbles can cure dinos need only set up a dino cure thread, invite them in, and try and get them cured by using only air. Dino infestations are some of the meanest ones we currently deal with in reefing of all invasions, if something that simple works then it should be able to be proven in a thread where at least 10 tanks show winning using only bubbles and however they export. dinos can be beaten repeatably somehow

Nobody has it yet


First to demonstrate gets top thread discovery 2016

the cure thread ends the debate. making cures in others tanks off the variables we change in our tanks is ultimately very hard to pull off, but with a proof thread, claims are aligned with fact much better
I hope someone does beat Dino, and does forward any aspect of bubbling if it has repeatable benefit. Certainly is harmless to try

Having ones claims filtered in this forum is gold, it's faster reef tank knowledge evo than one would get being directly in a college course.

 

[CoralNerd]

A little rub a bubble in the tub...nothing wrong with making it sound sexy...lol[emoji85] [emoji79] [emoji85] ...it's free for all to try.

 

[CoralNerd]

anyone who feels micro bubbles can cure dinos need only set up a dino cure thread, invite them in, and try and get them cured by using only air. Dino infestations are some of the meanest ones we currently deal with in reefing of all invasions, if something that simple works then it should be able to be proven in a thread where at least 10 tanks show winning using only bubbles. ill call that not going to happen, but relish any counter proof shown.

the cure thread ends the debate. making cures in others tanks off the variables we change in our tanks is ultimately very hard to pull off, but with a proof thread, claims are aligned with fact much better

You don't cure dinoflagellates with just bubbles, in fact I tried using just bubbles and it made them worse. There is a Facebook group with users that have used all the correct steps and micro bubbles is just one of the steps.

 

[brandon429]

agreed, nothing cures dinos consistently they are quite the challenge. ive bubbled my corals for 16 yrs now :) agreed its an ok practice. I had no other options due to system design

http://www.reefs.org/forums/topic27584.html

very few things in reefing are new practices


no matter what anyone reports about dino cures, you don't find the threads where active cures are taking place using any one method over and over... key detail in dino cure claims for sure. I agree its possible to assemble testimonies all in one place of people who did get a fix, but that's opposite of running the live time cure thread, that's the real swing vote. that single thread is always missing from any formal article about dino cures, or any claim. forum threads as claim filters are amazingly powerful

anyone who can cure various tanks of dinos has a viral thread in the making for sure, its among the top tank scourges

if anyone wants to start such a thread we have many challenges to send their way, daily new challenges from people with massive problem tanks.

 

[fab]

Wondering about cavitation here?
Check my post:

WRONG LINK: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/micro-bubbling.220404/

and this link references two other posts on this topic that you might find valuable.
These posts do not voice opinion. They are just straightforward background facts to help in these discussions on air blasting, micro bubbles and such.

WRONG LINK ABOVE in post [HASHTAG]#172[/HASHTAG], it just references this entire thread. USE THESE TWO LINKS:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/micro-bubbling.220404/#post-2820205

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/micro-bubbling.220404/#post-2820431

Sorry, I caught this error too late to edit the post.

 

[The Macro Guy]

anyone who feels micro bubbles can cure dinos need only set up a dino cure thread, invite them in, and try and get them cured by using only air. Dino infestations are some of the meanest ones we currently deal with in reefing of all invasions, if something that simple works then it should be able to be proven in a thread where at least 10 tanks show winning using only bubbles. ill call that not going to happen, but relish any counter proof shown. I like to start off skeptical and be wowed into believing :)

the cure thread ends the debate. making cures in others tanks off the variables we change in our tanks is ultimately very hard to pull off, but with a proof thread, claims are aligned with fact much better

I don't think anyone has said it cures dinos. Scrubbing is used as a treatment, as you can clearly see them lift up and float away while micro scrubbing, and that is without assisting them with a turkey baster.

 

[dakoop]

I am getting much clearer water. I have scientific proof!

The wife, who never comments on the tank, asked why the water was so much clearer.

 

[brandon429]

I swear earlier today in the chem forum I saw the cure claim :) its in there somewhere promise! :) but now that I see that wasn't the central claim here that's not a prob at all, if nobody is claiming en masse that bubbles w fix dinos then our dino cures seeking continues on...looking pretty grim I might add heh


our little pico reefs make neat models of what big reefs do because you don't have to wait so long for the ecology to play out. now that there are lots more comparative picos out there vs just the air driven ones, and they are growing same sps and lps etc, I cant say in hindsight the bubbling had swing vote effects, its just one more physicality we can do in a tank or not do. mines still bubbling to this very day, and I put up with the air pump noise due to its constant o2 refreshing and co2 degassing, that's why I like it. laminar tank turnover, specifically, which air bubbling affords and powerheads do not (eddies are waste of upflow turnover energy even though they still disturb the surface, bubbling is more efficient in every way if laminar upflow and turnover is the goal)

when we first started using air to run reefs (Lend Sy being the first I ever knew of/read about btw) it always seemed to me like I was using my whole tank as one does for the ph test by bubbling a sample cup of water to see if offgassing helps ph. my whole reef is one constant outgasser lol

 

[blusop]

Sorry, I'm not understanding. Are you being sarcastic?

Sarcastic in a sense but serious....i don't use any of those things mentioned and yes my tank is flourishing. ..but i was replying to the comments on "EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS REQUIRE EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE" .....I've proven without documentation that not using ANY of these things that my reef is successful. ...so why buy all the EXTRA if i get the same results as everyone else....same goes for micro bubbling...everyone wants documentation. .but shouldn't just looking at a successful reef that uses this method be enough ???