Modified Tank Transfer with Medication

[reburn]

So I have been having a lot of thought into a tank transfer method that could catch many of the common fish diseases early. While we know that the TTM works for ich it has been advised that it doesn't work for velvet and Brookynella. We also know it for sure doesn't work for Uronema, flukes and worms. The transfer method I'm proposing couples copper, prazipro, metroplex, Kanaplex and furan 2 with the TTM to outrun ich with a safety net for velvet and brooks. I have run copper and prazipro before without any interaction. I know of others that have run triple antibiotics with copper as well. The first thing that is going to be said I'm sure is the stress on the fish. I am not overly concerned with this I have taken leopard wrasses through TTM with no ill effects and the other medications listed below individually without incident. The stress of any one item was not enough to display any noticeable negative effects. I however have not combined it all into one shot. With that being said if it's a new fish and you're going to jump into this method I feel that you should be on top of your game and make sure the fish are actively eating though out the entire process. I have found that TTM in general is also harder for me to do well on larger fish, 6+" so traditional methods may be a better approach.

Why combine the Approaches;
#1 - Limit a fish's exposure to copper. Instead of 30 days the fish is only exposed to copper for 11 days which is almost a 3rd of the time. Of those 11 days 96 hours are ramp up with only 168 hours at a therapeutic 1.7ppm dose.
#2 - Transfers every 48 hrs to outrun ammonia buildup since ammonia reducers can't be used with copper.
#3 - A one and done method. An observation method is still strongly encouraged but this procedure pretty much catches all the diseases that I can see.
#4 - In the last 18 months I have seen some very dirty fish from different wholesalers that are coming in with a list of diseases. Sometimes multiple diseases at the same time.
#5 - Not use formalin which is a know carcinogen.
#6 - Maintains good water quality to prevent HLLE.
#7 - At the end of 15 days you have clean fish.

The proposed products being used here are:
Mardel Copper Safe (Chelated Copper)
Seachem Metroplex (metronidazole)
Seachem Kanaplex (kanamycin sulfate)
Hikari Prazipro (Praziquantel)
API Furan 2 (nitrofuzazone)

Dosages are based on the above manufactures recommendations and my vary from manufacture to manufacture.

For arguments sake all transfer take place at 8pm. Therapeutic level of chelated copper of 1.7ppm to be achieved with 1.8ml/g. Therapeutic levels of metroplex to be achieved with 2 level spoons per 10 gallons every 48 hrs (i.e. once per 48 hr transfer). Kanaplex as an antibiotic preventive at 2 level spoons per 5 gallons every 48 hrs (i.e. once per 48 hr transfer). Prazipro is dosed 3 times at the rate of 5ml per 20 gallons . Heavy aeration during the full TTM method is needed.

Cons;
#1 - It requires a lot of effort to transfer every 48 hours at the same time each transfer.
#2 - for the transfer process assuming 15g of water per transfer you will use 105 gallons of salt water.
#3 - increased chelated copper cost.
#4 - ammonia can't be reduced with amquel or prime. If you have an ammonia problem the only solution is to move earlier. For this reason light bioload in the transfer tanks should be observed.
#5 - You really should use 3 sets of equipment to ensure proper dry time. This is added expense in equipment.

TTM = Ich, 12 days moves maximum every 72 hrs.
TTM + chelated copper = velvet, from what I've read velvet will fall off a fish in 4 days. This allots for 6 days of full strength copper. Between the 48 hrs transfer and 6 full days of copper I believe this can eradicate velvet.
Metroplex = Brookynella, Uronema, some intestinal worms. - 14 days
Kanaplex = General Antibiotic - 14 days
Prazipro = some intestinal worms, black ich, flukes, gill flukes, 3 treatments of prazipro over 15 days.
Furan 2 = General Antibiotic - 14 days


Day 1 - fish in 8pm - 0 hours
Dose - 2 spoons of Kanaplex per 10g, 2 spoons of metroplex per 10g, 1 tea spoon of Furan 2 per 20g

Day 2 - Dose chelated copper at 0.36ml/g - 24 hours
Prazipro - 5ml per 20 gallons

Day 3 - Dose chelated copper at 0.72ml/g into new transfer tank and move fish - 48 hours, 0 hours.
Dose - 2 spoons of Kanaplex per 10g, 2 spoons of metroplex per 10g, 1 tea spoon of Furan 2 per 20g into the new transfer tank

Day 4 chelated copper at 0.36ml/g which raises levels to 1.08ml/g - 24 hours

Day 5 chelated copper at 1.44ml/g into new transfer tank and move fish - 48 hours, 0 hours.
Dose - 2 spoons of Kanaplex per 10g, 2 spoons of metroplex per 10g, 1 tea spoon of Furan 2 per 20g into the new transfer tank

Day 6 chelated copper at 0.36ml/g to reach Final therapeutic dose of 1.8ml/g = 1.7ppm - 24 hours.

Day 7 - chelated copper at 1.8ml/g into new transfer tank and move fish - 48 hours, 0 hours.
Dose - 2 spoons of Kanaplex per 10g, 2 spoons of metroplex per 10g, 1 tea spoon of Furan 2 per 20g into the new transfer tank

Day 8 - 24 hours
Prazipro - 5ml per 20 gallons

Day 9 - chelated copper at 1.8ml/g into new transfer tank and fish move - 48 hours, 0 hours.
Dose - 2 spoons of Kanaplex per 10g, 2 spoons of metroplex per 10g, 1 tea spoon of Furan 2 per 20g into the new transfer tank

Day 10 - 24 hrs

Day 11- chelated copper at 1.8ml/g into new transfer tank and move fish - 48 hours, 0 hours.
This is the last dose of copper and Velvet and Ich TTM is complete.
Dose - 2 spoons of Kanaplex per 10g, 2 spoons of metroplex per 10g, 1 tea spoon of Furan 2 per 20g into the new transfer tank

Day 12 - 24 hours

Day 13 - Move Fish- 48 hours, 0 hours.
Dose - 2 spoons of Kanaplex per 10g, 2 spoons of metroplex per 10g, 1 tea spoon of Furan 2 per 20g into the new transfer tank

Day 14 - Metroplex and Kanaplex complete - 24 hrs
Prazipro - 5ml per 20 gallons

Day 15 - Move into observation tank - 48 hours, 0 hours.

 

[Tahoe61]

Very interesting.

How do you feel about the possible development of resistant organisms secondary to shortened treatment intervals and possible sub therapeutic levels of medication?

You sure put a lot of work and thought into the endeavor, following.

 

[reburn]

I actually feel very strongly about both those questions and it maybe a developing problem in the hobby as a whole. However most people dose a 40b as 40 gallons of water instead of the 37ish without displacement that it's actually holding. So I would have to say most people probably actually overdose. In most cases a bit of overdose on the meds we are using is not going to hurt anything. So I don't think many people as a whole are actually using sub therapeutic levels of medications.

However shortened treatment intervals can be a very real problem in helping develop resistant pathogens. While the above treatment does have a shortened copper exposure it has a full length metro, Furan and kanaplex regimen as well as a full length full dose of prazipro. Since the window is 5-7 days on worm development I didn't want to go faster then that. Getting the schedule to work out where the prazi was effect in the water for 24 hours within the treatment window was the concern. The shortened copper exposure in my opinion doesn't have the ability to produce ich or velvet that could become resistant. The two reasons this is true is the ich is tossed out with the water if it's in a tomont stage. And it never has the ability to reach theront stage. Which I'm sure you know this is why TTM by itself is efficient at getting rid of ich. Velvet is a bit trickier however the copper will kill any dinospores that are able to hatch within the 48 hour transfer window. If one gets transferred over in one drop of water it's going into copper again. Any velvet that is encrusted goes down the drain with the encrusted ich. I'm not sure how many treatments of metro is needed to kill brooks. I haven't been able to find a definitive answer.

A better question would be how do I feel about over medicating when unnecessary and prophylactically treating as related to disease resistance . Hint I don't much care for it.

 

[ngoodermuth]

I would be a bit concerned mixing copper, two antibiotics, and PraziPro all at the same time. There would be a heavy drag on the O2 exchange, and there can be unforeseen interactions or sensitivity to certain medications or a mixture of them. Plus, every new chemical you add is adding stress, like you mentioned, on top of transfer stress, and possible appetite suppression. I just worry you might lose more fish than you think with such an aggressive schedule.

My suggestion would be to drop the "traditional" TTM. Use a seeded QT and run the copper/prazi first. Add an extra powerhead or airstone for O2. After 14 days of therapeutic copper, transfer to a STERILE QT, and treat with metroplex for 10 days. You may want to feed metroplex as well for internal worms. Add in kanaplex or furan-2 only if symptoms of bacterial infections present (prophylactic antibiotics are typically discouraged).
Follow by 2 week's observation only, no meds.

That would be an aggressive QT schedule, in my opinion, without completely bombarding the fish.

Would cover: ich, velvet, brook, flukes, internal worms, and if the antibiotics are needed, any type of infection that pops up.

 

[4FordFamily]

I would be a bit concerned mixing copper, two antibiotics, and PraziPro all at the same time. There would be a heavy drag on the O2 exchange, and there can be unforeseen interactions or sensitivity to certain medications or a mixture of them. Plus, every new chemical you add is adding stress, like you mentioned, on top of transfer stress, and possible appetite suppression. I just worry you might lose more fish than you think with such an aggressive schedule.

My suggestion would be to drop the "traditional" TTM. Use a seeded QT and run the copper/prazi first. Add an extra powerhead or airstone for O2. After 14 days of therapeutic copper, transfer to a STERILE QT, and treat with metroplex for 10 days. You may want to feed metroplex as well for internal worms. Add in kanaplex or furan-2 only if symptoms of bacterial infections present (prophylactic antibiotics are typically discouraged).
Follow by 2 week's observation only, no meds.

That would be an aggressive QT schedule, in my opinion, without completely bombarding the fish.

Would cover: ich, velvet, brook, flukes, internal worms, and if the antibiotics are needed, any type of infection that pops up.

Agree entirely. There's redundancy with TTM and copper, I see that as unnecessary stress. Well thought out, just too risky and redundant, IMO

 

[cmcoker]

Agree it's a bit too much I think. Bazooka when your looking for a shotgun.
I'd also note, you mention raising the copper level, then mov8ng fish several times. I would not do it that way, copper level should stay same and be raised when fish are already in the water imo

 

[Reefahholic]

I've been running CP for 4-5 days. Then TT the fish. Switch over to Coppersafe for 4-5 days and 1 more transfer. Then I treat for internal worms, etc. It's been pretty solid. The initial CP treatment should knock off all external parasites and ICH shouldn't stay on the fish for more than 3 days.

 

[melypr1985]

You should never use antibiotics prophylactically. Only when they are needed. An acriflavin bath would help ward off infection if that is your purpose. Metroplex shouldn't be used unless there is a need... again the acriflavin bath would help cover the fish for brook.

 

[ngoodermuth]

I've been running CP for 4-5 days. Then TT the fish. Switch over to Coppersafe for 4-5 days and 1 more transfer. Then I treat for internal worms, etc. It's been pretty solid. The initial CP treatment should knock off all external parasites and ICH shouldn't stay on the fish for more than 3 days.

The problem with this strategy is going to be suppressing issues (like velvet) with sub-therapeutic treatments, and having them pop-up later. CP should be run for 30 days, and copper needs *at least* 14 days if going to a new, sterile QT. 30 days if staying in the same QT.

 

[Reefahholic]

The problem with this strategy is going to be suppressing issues (like velvet) with sub-therapeutic treatments, and having them pop-up later. CP should be run for 30 days, and copper needs *at least* 14 days if going to a new, sterile QT. 30 days if staying in the same QT.

Let me ask a question...

We know Velvet completes it's life cycle in about 4 days. We know ICH can't say on a fish but for 3 days. When you run CP in a tank at a therapeutic level, after day 4 or 5 these parasites are no longer on the fish. Plus, they cannot land back on the fish due to the medication in the water column. So please explain to me why I need to run these meds out to 30 days?

 

[reburn]

It's to my understanding ich stays in then trophont stage on the fish for 3-7 days. Velvet for 12hrs - 4 days average.

On the Acriflavine how many treatments are needed to eradicate brooks? Is it wrasse safe? Macropharyngodon Primarily, Angels? Genicanthus?

 

[4FordFamily]

Let me ask a question...

We know Velvet completes it's life cycle in about 4 days. We know ICH can't say on a fish but for 3 days. When you run CP in a tank at a therapeutic level, after day 4 or 5 these parasites are no longer on the fish. Plus, they cannot land back on the fish due to the medication in the water column. So please explain to me why I need to run these meds out to 30 days?

If I remember correctly, there is a large range of life cycles. Where 90% may fall where you discuss there are other strains and even some of the same that don't. The copper an CP can only kill in the free swimming stage, so that's what it targets.

 

[melypr1985]

It's to my understanding ich stays in then trophont stage on the fish for 3-7 days. Velvet for 12hrs - 4 days average.

On the Acriflavine how many treatments are needed to eradicate brooks? Is it wrasse safe? Macropharyngodon Primarily, Angels? Genicanthus?

Usually I will do just one acriflavin dip and follow that up with metroplex dosed in the water (10 days of treatment). That usually does it for me, though you may need to do another dip a couple days after the first if you have a particularly stubborn case of brook. Yes, I haven't had any issues with using acriflavin dips on any species as yet. It's a fairly mild antiseptic.

 

[ngoodermuth]

If I remember correctly, there is a large range of life cycles. Where 90% may fall where you discuss there are other strains and even some of the same that don't. The copper an CP can only kill in the free swimming stage, so that's what it targets.

Yea, and that's where Murphey's law steps in, at least for me [emoji15]

 

[reburn]

Ok so I would like to simplify the above schedule just for ich and velvet.
Does anyone see a problem with it. Taking out the metro and antibiotics.
Should this take care of velvet?

I'm prepared to start the cycle with a test batch I currently have in the middle of TTM.
Bipartitus female, meleagris female, flame angel, 2 female carberryi anthias.
The fish are all active eating and are in good health.
The fish aren't showing any diseases so this isn't a scientific approach and I won't be taking gill clippings later to verify they are clean. I need to be able to go into a clean holding tank after treatment and I need the holding tank to stay clean. I am not willing to break down the tank again due to ich or velvet slipping g through. I don't have another QT to go into so please don't go down that route. My Qt's are filled up with my other fish at the moment. And I'm fallow on my tank again for another 50 days so I can't go there with them.

So this is more a will this method take care of ich and velvet with a high degree of certainty.


Day 1 - fish in 8pm - 0 hours

Day 2 - Dose chelated copper at 0.36ml/g - 24 hours

Day 3 - Dose chelated copper at 0.72ml/g into new transfer tank and move fish - 48 hours, 0 hours.

Day 4 chelated copper at 0.36ml/g which raises levels to 1.08ml/g - 24 hours

Day 5 chelated copper at 1.44ml/g into new transfer tank and move fish - 48 hours, 0 hours.

Day 6 chelated copper at 0.36ml/g to reach Final therapeutic dose of 1.8ml/g = 1.7ppm - 24 hours.

Day 7 - chelated copper at 1.8ml/g into new transfer tank and move fish - 48 hours, 0 hours.

Day 8 - 24 hours

Day 9 - chelated copper at 1.8ml/g into new transfer tank and fish move - 48 hours, 0 hours.

Day 10 - 24 hrs

Day 11- chelated copper at 1.8ml/g into new transfer tank and move fish - 48 hours, 0 hours.
This is the last dose of copper and Velvet and Ich TTM is complete.

Day 12 - 24 hours

Day 13 - Move Fish into observation tank

 

[melypr1985]

I'd feel better with a full 14 days of copper, but the transfers should help there. As long as you do the observation period and watch them very closely every day, then it's definitely worth a try. Be sure to document your steps here so we can follow along.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Honestly? I think it would be better to just pick one treatment. If you are doing copper for velvet, you don't need the tank transfers. Just run copper 14 days, and then transfer to a clean QT. Or, just keep them in copper 30 days with no transfers at all.

 

[Reefahholic]

If I remember correctly, there is a large range of life cycles. Where 90% may fall where you discuss there are other strains and even some of the same that don't. The copper an CP can only kill in the free swimming stage, so that's what it targets.

Ok, I don't doubt that, but I'd like to see the data on that because I know the data we currently have.

 

[Reefahholic]

Yea, and that's where Murphey's law steps in, at least for me [emoji15]

You never answered the question. Yup doesn't show the data that supports that statement.

 

[Reefahholic]

It's to my understanding ich stays in then trophont stage on the fish for 3-7 days. Velvet for 12hrs - 4 days average.

Exactly...which is why I do 2 transfers with 2 different medications over the course of 8-10 days. According to the current data we have, the fish will no longer have and trophonts. Again, when a therapeutic level of medication is in the water column, the parasites cannot function properly. They can't attach to fish. They will not land on fish.