moonshine debate
- Thread starter salty joe
- Start date
- Tagged users None
As a new reefer, the algorithmic approach of moonshiners is attractive to me. It is seductive to think that someone with more knowledge than I would look at my water and give me periodic corrections.
You'll probably see this thread turn into quite a debate as many feel it is unnecessary and wasteful. My take is that these are the folks who have a lot more knowledge and skill for maintaining a reef and don't need the crutch.
One thing I do believe is true is that some of the elements in the moonshiners program are not known to have any benefit to the critters in our tanks. There doesn't seem to be any harm in adding them, but some pretty knowledgeable people will tell you they are just a waste of resources.
You'll probably see this thread turn into quite a debate as many feel it is unnecessary and wasteful. My take is that these are the folks who have a lot more knowledge and skill for maintaining a reef and don't need the crutch.
One thing I do believe is true is that some of the elements in the moonshiners program are not known to have any benefit to the critters in our tanks. There doesn't seem to be any harm in adding them, but some pretty knowledgeable people will tell you they are just a waste of resources.
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
Staff member
Super Moderator
Excellence Award
Expert Contributor
Article Contributor
R2R Research
My Tank Thread
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2014
- Messages
- 67,407
- Reaction score
- 63,754
My opinion is that it is a fine plan, with a few limitations. From my recent article posting my thoughts on trace elements, this is a copy and paste:
A third approach involves testing of the concentrations of many trace elements by ICP (the only way generally available to reefers to test trace elements at low concentrations) and dosing each element measured to bring it back into a desirable range. This method is more expensive and labor intensive than A or B, but is clearly better, in my opinion, without being perfect. The issues include the accuracy of the ICP measurement (may be partly determined by the company and their protocols, partly by the exact type of ICP used, and partly by what happens to the sample between your tank and the plasma itself. Freezing, bacterial growth in the sample tube, binding to the tube sides, any sort of filtration or centrifugation, or lack thereof, at the company may all play a role in the accuracy. Additionally, the issues of chemical speciation (e.g., ferrous vs ferric iron) and complexation by organics is not resolved by ICP. Finally, desirable ranges are often determined by one or more people that may or may not have the same focus (color vs growth, different organisms considered, etc.). I’m also wary of some of these methods that suggest dosing of chemicals not known by science to play any role in any known organisms. If using such a method, I’d either leave these out, or at least experiment by not dosing them and see if anything is different in my aquarium.
www.reef2reef.com
www.reef2reef.com
A third approach involves testing of the concentrations of many trace elements by ICP (the only way generally available to reefers to test trace elements at low concentrations) and dosing each element measured to bring it back into a desirable range. This method is more expensive and labor intensive than A or B, but is clearly better, in my opinion, without being perfect. The issues include the accuracy of the ICP measurement (may be partly determined by the company and their protocols, partly by the exact type of ICP used, and partly by what happens to the sample between your tank and the plasma itself. Freezing, bacterial growth in the sample tube, binding to the tube sides, any sort of filtration or centrifugation, or lack thereof, at the company may all play a role in the accuracy. Additionally, the issues of chemical speciation (e.g., ferrous vs ferric iron) and complexation by organics is not resolved by ICP. Finally, desirable ranges are often determined by one or more people that may or may not have the same focus (color vs growth, different organisms considered, etc.). I’m also wary of some of these methods that suggest dosing of chemicals not known by science to play any role in any known organisms. If using such a method, I’d either leave these out, or at least experiment by not dosing them and see if anything is different in my aquarium.
Randy's thoughts on trace elements
Randy's thoughts on trace elements in reef aquaria.
www.reef2reef.com
Randy's Elements to Dose
In a previous article I discussed my thoughts on trace elements https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randys-thoughts-on-trace-elements.951/ This article expands on that discussion by providing specific guidance for all elements one might dose. First...
www.reef2reef.com
It's not moonshine if you mix your own additives. If you really think you know how to mix elements correctly and accurately, and know quantities to dose based on ICP, you could save some money over traditional moonshine. Good luck!
there have been some IG reels that @telegraham has put up providing alternatives to some of the stuff we normally dose on the shine. i've been following along, looking to make a list of substitutes for what we already use.
salty joe
Well-Known Member
I'll be using lab grade chemicals and I can follow a recipe. I trust Randy's recipes. At that point, dosing is straightforward basic math.Bioavailability and safety.
As far as bioavailability, how will my mixture of sodium molybdenum be any more or less effective than any other moly mix?
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
Staff member
Super Moderator
Excellence Award
Expert Contributor
Article Contributor
R2R Research
My Tank Thread
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2014
- Messages
- 67,407
- Reaction score
- 63,754
I'm not even sure what an IG reel is, but there are lots of DIY recipes detailed here:
DIY Chemistry Archive
I thought it would be useful to have an archive of DIY chemistry methods. I'll add to it as things come up. Calcium and Alkalinity DIY method comparison https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/randy-recommended-diy-two-part-recipes.984604/ Three Part using Sodium Hydroxide (including Balling Part...
www.reef2reef.com
telegraham
Active Member
- Joined
- May 20, 2017
- Messages
- 443
- Reaction score
- 600
They are the random yammerings of a fool.I'm not even sure what an IG reel is, but there are lots of DIY recipes detailed here:
DIY Chemistry Archive
I thought it would be useful to have an archive of DIY chemistry methods. I'll add to it as things come up. Calcium and Alkalinity DIY method comparison https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/randy-recommended-diy-two-part-recipes.984604/ Three Part using Sodium Hydroxide (including Balling Part...
Similar threads
