MY take CP, chloroquine, chloroquine phosphate

[lion king]

This is an OPINION piece, I'm not a fan. CP seemingly has made a resurgence over the last few years. Funny thing is we stopped using it more than 25 years ago, because the efficacy was very dismal. As everyone stopped using it by the 90s, we figured the efficacy was about the same rate as if not treated at all. While there were questions of the safety of copper products, copper did have a very high success rate compared to cp. But then goes the question of what to use on species with copper sensitivity. Back then that research wasn't as known as it is today. So today people are choosing to use cp on lions and eels, I personally have never used it since around 1990. I do not have 1st hand information on the safety in using with lions and eels, although I have read about some negative reactions with lions. Appetite with eels have been reported to be greatly affected and any long term or aftereffects are completely unknown.

Today; Why I don't like cp, I have never seen anyone with my own eyes successfully treat an actual active disease. While cp scientifically should be very effective on protozoan diseases, for some reason most people fail when using it. Here's my take on why; 1st - know your source. If you buy a powdered version you may as well be buying it from a corner boy, who knows what this stuff actually is. You must purchase from an actually legitimate source of medical grade chloroquine, unexpired and kept in the proper conditions. CP is delicate to the exposure of uv light, that will also mean any loose pills. Once dosed you must not use the tank lights or exposed to indirect sunlight. Dosing in a display tank is a complete waste of time, it must be dosed in a hospital tank with no porous material. The long term effects on species like lions, eels, and others are unknown, just as with copper, sometimes they survive treatment, only to die soon after. For some reason many hobbyist are unforthcoming with this information.

Most people that tout cp use it as a prophylactic treatment, so they have great success treating nothing. While I personally have not seen much success using it on actual diseases, technically it should work. So anyone using it make sure it's from a reputable source, protect from uv, dose in hospital tank, verify your prescribed dosage; and you may have success.

Lions and eels do not need any prophylactic treatment for protozoan diseases. If you are keeping them in a qt/observational tank a 4 week observation is all you need. These species have a specialized slime coating which makes them very resistant to protozoan diseases. Protozoan diseases find it near impossible to attach, so once introduced as a healthy specimen there should be no need for treatment.

I still believe the best route for lions and eels are to move them from the diseased tank, keep them in pristine water conditions, and feed them a high quality diet preferably with some of my recommendations. I believe that good food is medicine. If spots are visible incorporate hyposalinity.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

This is an OPINION piece, I'm not a fan. CP seemingly has made a resurgence over the last few years. Funny thing is we stopped using it more than 25 years ago, because the efficacy was very dismal. As everyone stopped using it by the 90s, we figured the efficacy was about the same rate as if not treated at all. While there were questions of the safety of copper products, copper did have a very high success rate compared to cp. But then goes the question of what to use on species with copper sensitivity. Back then that research wasn't as known as it is today. So today people are choosing to use cp on lions and eels, I personally have never used it since around 1990. I do not have 1st hand information on the safety in using with lions and eels, although I have read about some negative reactions with lions. Appetite with eels have been reported to be greatly affected and any long term or aftereffects are completely unknown.

Today; Why I don't like cp, I have never seen anyone with my own eyes successfully treat an actual active disease. While cp scientifically should be very effective on protozoan diseases, for some reason most people fail when using it. Here's my take on why; 1st - know your source. If you buy a powdered version you may as well be buying it from a corner boy, who knows what this stuff actually is. You must purchase from an actually legitimate source of medical grade chloroquine, unexpired and kept in the proper conditions. CP is delicate to the exposure of uv light, that will also mean any loose pills. Once dosed you must not use the tank lights or exposed to indirect sunlight. Dosing in a display tank is a complete waste of time, it must be dosed in a hospital tank with no porous material. The long term effects on species like lions, eels, and others are unknown, just as with copper, sometimes they survive treatment, only to die soon after. For some reason many hobbyist are unforthcoming with this information.

Most people that tout cp use it as a prophylactic treatment, so they have great success treating nothing. While I personally have not seen much success using it on actual diseases, technically it should work. So anyone using it make sure it's from a reputable source, protect from uv, dose in hospital tank, verify your prescribed dosage; and you may have success.

Lions and eels do not need any prophylactic treatment for protozoan diseases. If you are keeping them in a qt/observational tank a 4 week observation is all you need. These species have a specialized slime coating which makes them very resistant to protozoan diseases. Protozoan diseases find it near impossible to attach, so once introduced as a healthy specimen there should be no need for treatment.

I still believe the best route for lions and eels are to move them from the diseased tank, keep them in pristine water conditions, and feed them a high quality diet preferably with some of my recommendations. I believe that good food is medicine. If spots are visible incorporate hyposalinity.

Back in the 1970’s there was a product called Marex. It was CP and another compound (I don’t recall what). It was a great preventive for protozoans and also killed all the algae in the tanks.
When I started using CP again around 2005, I was really into it because I had a UV spectrophotometer and could use that to measure doses. I had a couple of instances where the CP didn’t stop an active Crypt. Infection, so I upped the dose to 15 to 20 mg/l. Then, as I think I mentioned, I began seeing odd mortality in wrasses and some other fish. The kicker was a group of lionfish we had gotten in from the keys that had been doing great. I hit them with CP and it fried their livers and they died a few hours after being fed. I backed off using it and then destroyed my remaining stock around 2018.
I do disagree with you about using food as a “treatment” - too many people go that route and end up losing fish. What happens is they have other issues and when they read they just need to feed better, they follow that and lose fish. This is the same thing I used to hear a lot - “feed selco” or “feed garlic” to cure an acute ich infection … and that so often ends in failure. Good diet and pristine water quality goes a long way in preventing acute disease, but it is NOT an effective treatment once the disease reaches the tipping point to the acute phase.
Jay

 

[lion king]

Back in the 1970’s there was a product called Marex. It was CP and another compound (I don’t recall what). It was a great preventive for protozoans and also killed all the algae in the tanks.
When I started using CP again around 2005, I was really into it because I had a UV spectrophotometer and could use that to measure doses. I had a couple of instances where the CP didn’t stop an active Crypt. Infection, so I upped the dose to 15 to 20 mg/l. Then, as I think I mentioned, I began seeing odd mortality in wrasses and some other fish. The kicker was a group of lionfish we had gotten in from the keys that had been doing great. I hit them with CP and it fried their livers and they died a few hours after being fed. I backed off using it and then destroyed my remaining stock around 2018.
I do disagree with you about using food as a “treatment” - too many people go that route and end up losing fish. What happens is they have other issues and when they read they just need to feed better, they follow that and lose fish. This is the same thing I used to hear a lot - “feed selco” or “feed garlic” to cure an acute ich infection … and that so often ends in failure. Good diet and pristine water quality goes a long way in preventing acute disease, but it is NOT an effective treatment once the disease reaches the tipping point to the acute phase.
Jay

Once a protazoan disease reaches the tipping point in a lion, eel, and other species; there is no treatment that will save them. So there's a chance with pristine water, proper foods particularly live foods ; because once you have to treat it's too late anyway. I don't think I know of a lion surviving ever more than a few months after a treatment, and I don;t think I know of an eel every surviving as long as year after treatment. Incorporating hyposalinity is the last best effort because treating with the current will only buy you a few months at best, I don't see the point. I have saved many lions and eels from tanks with protazoan diseases using this method while I watched others kill them with copper or continue with poor diets and lacking water quality.

 

[lion king]

If you wait, it's too late. When I have and others have taken immediate action, success has been very high by removing to an uninfected tank and provided pristine water conditions and a live food diet or at least fresh human grade seafood stuffed with algae pellets and a high vitamin c pellet. I recommend New Life Spectrum algae max and Saki-Hikari marine carnivore, you can stuff them in chunks of fresh seafood. Just as my observations about initial acclimation and eating, if your predator doesn't accept the proper live food offering, to immediately treat with general cure. Well even though a repeat immediately, people wait, and then it's too late. Same here, once you see signs, act immediately, yes immediately.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Once a protazoan disease reaches the tipping point in a lion, eel, and other species; there is no treatment that will save them. So there's a chance with pristine water, proper foods particularly live foods ; because once you have to treat it's too late anyway. I don't think I know of a lion surviving ever more than a few months after a treatment, and I don;t think I know of an eel every surviving as long as year after treatment. Incorporating hyposalinity is the last best effort because treating with the current will only buy you a few months at best, I don't see the point. I have saved many lions and eels from tanks with protazoan diseases using this method while I watched others kill them with copper or continue with poor diets and lacking water quality.

I'm not sure I understand, maybe we are not using the same definition of "tipping point". For me, that is when a protozoan or metazoan parasite goes from a chronic infection to an acute infection. For protozoans, that is often when the geometric progression hits the ramp up in the growth curve. For marine ich, that is usually when > 30 trophonts are seen on any one fish. Then, propagule pressure comes into play and this overrides all immunity, either conferred, innate or acquired.

I don't understand what you mean that "no treatment will save them". I save fish all the time from epizootics using medications, including lionfish and eels. I have never seen the delayed post-treatment mortality that you have, and my sample size is pretty large, over a long horizon. What I DO see is fish dying from hepatic lipidosis. However, this is a dietary issue, not due to previous exposure to medications like copper or formalin.

Jay

 

[lion king]

I'm not sure I understand, maybe we are not using the same definition of "tipping point". For me, that is when a protozoan or metazoan parasite goes from a chronic infection to an acute infection. For protozoans, that is often when the geometric progression hits the ramp up in the growth curve. For marine ich, that is usually when > 30 trophonts are seen on any one fish. Then, propagule pressure comes into play and this overrides all immunity, either conferred, innate or acquired.

I don't understand what you mean that "no treatment will save them". I save fish all the time from epizootics using medications, including lionfish and eels. I have never seen the delayed post-treatment mortality that you have, and my sample size is pretty large, over a long horizon. What I DO see is fish dying from hepatic lipidosis. However, this is a dietary issue, not due to previous exposure to medications like copper or formalin.

Jay

How long have you really had contact with the eels and lions you have treated with copper. Every person I have every talked about this with have very little follow up contact, usually none actually. I can do a quick scan of the disease forum here and easily see how most people fail when comes to treating disease. I find this to be be one of the dark unmentioned topics in our hobby. Personally I see very little immediate succuss and absolutely no long term success. I am talking with people for decades, I am talking many dozen if not hundreds of follow ups. Most hobbyist have little success treating any fish once they are dealing with serious issue. I am talking many dozens of hobbyist and lfs over 3 decades, I just can't subscribe to your notion that copper treatment will not create severe liver damage. I've seen it with my own eyes. I really wish people would start being honest about the longevity of certain species once they have been exposed to certain meds, but after all these years I suspect it will never happen. How am I surprised as it's the same case as with humans, I am watching humans being poisoned by pharma drugs every day.

 

[lion king]

My post may reach a couple of hundred people and maybe 1 or 2 will transfer that lion into an observation tank, follow my suggestions and save them, thats going be just fine with me. Most the others won't listen and that lion will die. And eels are even more resilient. And I'm really not talking to the crowd that doesn't believe in human nutrition and find their health with big pharma.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

How long have you really had contact with the eels and lions you have treated with copper. Every person I have every talked about this with have very little follow up contact, usually none actually. I can do a quick scan of the disease forum here and easily see how most people fail when comes to treating disease. I find this to be be one of the dark unmentioned topics in our hobby. Personally I see very little immediate succuss and absolutely no long term success. I am talking with people for decades, I am talking many dozen if not hundreds of follow ups. Most hobbyist have little success treating any fish once they are dealing with serious issue. I am talking many dozens of hobbyist and lfs over 3 decades, I just can't subscribe to your notion that copper treatment will not create severe liver damage. I've seen it with my own eyes. I really wish people would start being honest about the longevity of certain species once they have been exposed to certain meds, but after all these years I suspect it will never happen. How am I surprised as it's the same case as with humans, I am watching humans being poisoned by pharma drugs every day.

I was a public aquarium curator for 35 years, so I held the fish for decades. I saw NO evidence of delayed mortality from any cause. All fish were sent out for histopathology (unless not fresh enough) so it isn’t just me saying this.

After accidents and Mycobacterium, Hepatic lipidosis is the biggest killer of long term captive fish.

Jay

 

[lion king]

I was a public aquarium curator for 35 years, so I held the fish for decades. I saw NO evidence of delayed mortality from any cause. All fish were sent out for histopathology (unless not fresh enough) so it isn’t just me saying this.

After accidents and Mycobacterium, Hepatic lipidosis is the biggest killer of long term captive fish.

Jay

Well something does not trickle down to the hobby.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Well something does not trickle down to the hobby.

Not sure I understand, I also have 15 years in the retail and wholesale pet trade and have been a hobbyist the whole time.
Remember, you made the claim, so it is for you to prove your hypothesis.

Jay

 

[lion king]

I still hold true to the fact that I never see lions or eels and other species live long after treatment with copper if they even live through treatment, you can even piece together these claims from online posts. I still hold true that I rarely see any hobbyist successfully use copper, cp, or antibiotics. Yes this is due to user error(s) from waiting too long, improper tank set up, dosage, lack of oxygenation, on and on . You can see this just by taking toll of the post in the disease forum that most do not have a successful end. Maybe we just analyze information differently. Most hobbyist are just out of their realm when attempting to medicate fish. I see more success when the focus is placed on nutrition and water quality rather than intervention with meds. I still hold true that I have seen more lions and eels saved by removing to observation and focusing on nutrition and water quality, and I see very little success using copper or antibiotics. Again you can see this just by taking toll of the post in the disease forum.