Mystery Zoa melt, my search for a cure (follow my journey).

[Edgecrusher28]

i’m very interested in seeing what you find out. i’m having zoa problems too. in my tank (fluval evo 13.5) it’s a little different: a colony will thrive and grow for a while, then about half of the zoas will close, shrivel and melt. the rest recover (provided the colony is big enough), and just when i’m sure they’re fully in the clear, the disease cycle starts again. all other corals look amazing. I see no evidence of parasites after repeated searches.

It started after i added zoas from several different sellers a few months ago. I strongly suspect bacteria because the pattern is the same across colonies, but i’m very hesitant to try an antibiotic because i don’t want to disrupt the things that are going well (i.e. literally everything in the tank except the zoas).

In the interest of promoting beneficial bacteria rather than killing the bad, i’ve been dosing Dr Tim’s Eco-balance and Aquavitro Seed. I turned off my UV sterilizer after hearing Dr Tim claim on his podcast that UV can kill beneficial bacteria in the water column and allow benthic pathogens to gain a stronger foothold. After all this the zoas seem to have stabilized, but i still have an utter chaos colony on the brink of death after catching the disease a second time, and half a colony of magicians actively melting. (the other half of the colony looks great.)

i’m contemplating ordering some live reef sand from Aquabiomics: sourced from the ocean and, they claim, free of pathogens. Beyond that, idk what else to do beyond the usual husbandry routine that has all my other corals thriving. Iodine and vitamin C seem to have a spotty record, at best. I may just limit my zoa purchases to super-inexpensive morphs…or phase out zoas in this tank.

Anyway, I appreciate your trying and ruling out so many treatments.

Yeah I really wanted to order some of their live rock/rubble but it was all out of stock. So I ended up ordering about 80 pounds of live rock and gravel from Tampa Bay Saltwater. This rock will be harvested and shipped in water, so it should be as close to live rock as possible! I will give it a month or two and re-send a new Biomics test to see what difference that has made, and hopefully I can find some means of improvement with these Zoa's.

 

[natalia la loca]

Yeah I really wanted to order some of their live rock/rubble but it was all out of stock. So I ended up ordering about 80 pounds of live rock and gravel from Tampa Bay Saltwater. This rock will be harvested and shipped in water, so it should be as close to live rock as possible! I will give it a month or two and re-send a new Biomics test to see what difference that has made, and hopefully I can find some means of improvement with these Zoa's.

nice!!! following the thread to see how things go.

 

[mfollen]

Great idea, please share the pre and post results

 

[Snoopdog]

I am having the same issue and ran upon this thread. What blows my mind is that I go to my local reef store and the guy has hundreds of zoas and paly's on egg crate fully open, as far as the eyes can see and mine are melting away. Two years ago before my Red Sea busted I had them growing like weeds, but I did occasionally lose some like I did lose my Ding Dangs. They do not die immediately now, but eventually they get something like cyano on the stalk and close up. Whatever it is it does look like either red or green cyano. At first I thought it was the cyano killing them, but now I think the cyano is just eating on them because they are dying.

My current thought is I am overskimming. The major difference in the two tanks is my lighting did change, but everything else in the tank is just peachy.

 

[Snoopdog]

Yeah I really wanted to order some of their live rock/rubble but it was all out of stock. So I ended up ordering about 80 pounds of live rock and gravel from Tampa Bay Saltwater. This rock will be harvested and shipped in water, so it should be as close to live rock as possible! I will give it a month or two and re-send a new Biomics test to see what difference that has made, and hopefully I can find some means of improvement with these Zoa's.

I got my shipment of 25lbs in last week. As just a test I moved some of my closed up zoas into that tank while the rock is curing. I mean what do I have to lose? The environment is different, including the lighting. And actually since the rock was shipped in water it cycled in a day so I am back at 0 ammonia.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

I got my shipment of 25lbs in last week. As just a test I moved some of my closed up zoas into that tank while the rock is curing. I mean what do I have to lose? The environment is different, including the lighting. And actually since the rock was shipped in water it cycled in a day so I am back at 0 ammonia.

Where did you get your live rock from out of curiosity? Let me know what you find with this test, my rock does not arrive until 7-31 so I am a few days out from getting started.

 

[Snoopdog]

Where did you get your live rock from out of curiosity? Let me know what you find with this test, my rock does not arrive until 7-31 so I am a few days out from getting started.

Tampa Bay Saltwater

 

[Snoopdog]

What gets me is that people will say zoas and palys need nutrients and then when we run decent nutrient levels, we get hair algae or something similar. It could just be tank maturity and age? Nothing good happens overnight in a reef tank. Mine seem to do okay but will slowly deteriorate with time, at this point my best guess is that the zoas are starving. I have turned off my skimmer and since I have been growing phytoplankton I am going to start pouring phyto in there daily and test nutrient levels to see how the corals respond in time.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

What gets me is that people will say zoas and palys need nutrients and then when we run decent nutrient levels, we get hair algae or something similar. It could just be tank maturity and age? Nothing good happens overnight in a reef tank. Mine seem to do okay but will slowly deteriorate with time, at this point my best guess is that the zoas are starving. I have turned off my skimmer and since I have been growing phytoplankton I am going to start pouring phyto in there daily and test nutrient levels to see how the corals respond in time.

Just a recent theory of mine; however. Tanks that seem to be sensitive to algae outbreaks with even slightest nutrient spikes (just like my tank) perhaps are lacking sufficient biome bacteria. Whereas tanks that have plenty of this bacteria can have super elevated phosphate and nitrate levels and no surface algae growth or at least is manageable by the CUC.

 

[Snoopdog]

Just a recent theory of mine; however. Tanks that seem to be sensitive to algae outbreaks with even slightest nutrient spikes (just like my tank) perhaps are lacking sufficient biome bacteria. Whereas tanks that have plenty of this bacteria can have super elevated phosphate and nitrate levels and no surface algae growth or at least is manageable by the CUC.

Bingo.

I see people post here that they have nitrates over 80 and then show a picture, zero algae. One common theme seems that those tanks have been setup for very long periods, likely with live rock.

 

[Snoopdog]

By the way @Edgecrusher28 since you got yours from Tampa Bay, do you have fish where you are putting this rock? Are you going to quarantine it?

 

[Edgecrusher28]

By the way @Edgecrusher28 since you got yours from Tampa Bay, do you have fish where you are putting this rock? Are you going to quarantine it?

Yeah I have a few tangs in this tank, but I plan to just put the rock and gravel straight into the sump when it arrives, no quarantining. I know its a risk, but I am willing to take the chance in hopes to resolve this lack of good bacteria issue!

 

[Snoopdog]

Yeah I have a few tangs in this tank, but I plan to just put the rock and gravel straight into the sump when it arrives, no quarantining. I know its a risk, but I am willing to take the chance in hopes to resolve this lack of good bacteria issue!

Well I am catching plenty of the predatory isopods, may want to rethink that.

 

[littlebigreef]

What gets me is that people will say zoas and palys need nutrients and then when we run decent nutrient levels, we get hair algae or something similar. It could just be tank maturity and age? Nothing good happens overnight in a reef tank. Mine seem to do okay but will slowly deteriorate with time, at this point my best guess is that the zoas are starving. I have turned off my skimmer and since I have been growing phytoplankton I am going to start pouring phyto in there daily and test nutrient levels to see how the corals respond in time.

I’ve been actively advocating for people to retire the ‘zoas like dirty water/high nutrient’ talking point.

Zoas and palys need nutrition to thrive and nutrients are an indirect measurement of available nutrition. Z’s and P’s can thrive in low nutrient systems that are well fed and enjoy high nutrient export.

In that save vein zoas can do well in systems that have moderately high nutrients but then it becomes a question of input vs nutrient export and the overall maturity of the system. Are the nutrients elevated with nominal input vs heavy feedings? Is it a mature system with robust micro fauna? Or are nutrients high because export is lacking? - opening the door to cyano, dinos, nuisance algae, etc.

It’s been my experience 30 months post move that stuff stalled the first 15-18 months due to the system maturing and low nutrition input. The last 12 months or so I’m back to feeding as heavily as I was pre move (old system was 4/5 years old) and stuff is growing like crazy.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

It’s been my experience 30 months post move that stuff stalled the first 15-18 months due to the system maturing and low nutrition input. The last 12 months or so I’m back to feeding as heavily as I was pre move (old system was 4/5 years old) and stuff is growing like crazy.

Or do you think that maybe this was more do the re-establishment of bacteria colonies (the good ones) over time, or the actual feeding?

 

[littlebigreef]

Or do you think that maybe this was more do the re-establishment of bacteria colonies (the good ones) over time, or the actual feeding?

Or do you think that maybe this was more do the re-establishment of bacteria colonies (the good ones) over time, or the actual feeding?

For context; the system at the old house was a 220 gal with a plumbed 125 gal that was the sandbox/zoa farm. There was a few hundred lbs of liverock in the display and another 120-150 lbs in the 125. Aquarium was stocked with several large tangs, a pair of genicanthus angels, a comet and lots of dither fish and had been running about 5 years.

When I moved I split the zoas off into a 180 gal trough along with the 120-150lbs of rock. I used copious amounts of Dr Tims. Given the relative closeness of the houses (15mins) I only initially moved the rock and over the course of a week saw a very minor rise and fall in ammonia. The new system essentially cycled before I began moving any coral. Due to a tight timeline between closings I then moved everything over with all the fish going into the new display which was/is separate. I was concerned about a large influx of nutrition causing a wholesale cycle in the trough so I only added one tang and several smaller fish and fed sparingly for the first year or so. System was cycled but nowhere near mature. Moving, scaling up, working with limited funds (you bleed green when you buy a new house) were all constraints that first year. While I had some losses during the time things were generally doing well even if they weren't growing at the same clip as before. Around the 18 month mark I added 1/2 dozen grammas, and bumped up the feeding. Then at the 24 month mark I added 5 - 4" orange line chromis that had outgrown the display along with few other random fish. I then bumped the nutrition up again to the point I'm at now (~30 months post move) where I'm putting in as much, if not more, food than I was at the old house.

I see lots of conversations around cycling but less so around maturation. For as important as it is to have a solid colony of nitrifying bacteria its just as important, in my mind, to establish a robust supporting crew of micro fauna - all the stuff that will eat what the corals and fish don't. This allows you to feed extremely heavy and in turn get more food into the corals. What doesn't get consumed, by one organism or another, then gets exported. In my system I'm now able to feed very heavily with a standard rate of nutrient export (skimmer cleaned every 2-3 days) and no3/p04 being in what's generally considered the 'sweet spot'. It's not usual for some zoa strains to 'stall' but from where I was 24 months ago, to 12 months ago to now I'm seeing a 10-fold increase in growth over the last year.

Bear in mind I've had some of these colonies for 10-11 years across 3 moves so I'm framing these conclusions on a fair amount of experience in terms of moving.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

7-31 LIVE ROCK ADDED
Just made it back from the airport after picking up my live rock and sand from Tampa Bay Saltwater. Everything arrived in good order and overall the process was top notch, these folks did a very nice job! I ordered the premium live rock and the name holds up, there was a ton of live life forms all over these rocks. It makes me nervous introducing this into my tank but I am going to risk the biscuit to find a cure; here is to hope.

 

[Tavero]

Yes, please do!

Well after just a few weeks all of my Zoa frags that my friend was babysitting died. They melted in record time as soon as i put them in his tank.
He doesn't have have any other zoanthids in this tank due to allergies/sensibility to palytoxin so i don't have any comparision. The only thing i can get from this is the usual fatality rate of 100%. If they close up, their fate is already sealed. I have now also removed the last Alien Explosions from my tank. Colony of hundreds of polyps growing like weeds... gone.
Lets hear from your experience. Even a small improvement would be a success. I didn't even want to look into my tank in the last few weeks due to frustration and i am close to restarting that whole thing.

 

[FifteenYearsBand]

Well after just a few weeks all of my Zoa frags that my friend was babysitting died. They melted in record time as soon as i put them in his tank.
He doesn't have have any other zoanthids in this tank due to allergies/sensibility to palytoxin so i don't have any comparision. The only thing i can get from this is the usual fatality rate of 100%. If they close up, their fate is already sealed. I have now also removed the last Alien Explosions from my tank. Colony of hundreds of polyps growing like weeds... gone.
Lets hear from your experience. Even a small improvement would be a success. I didn't even want to look into my tank in the last few weeks due to frustration and i am close to restarting that whole thing.

Not to go back to square one, but... can you share his params?

 

[Edgecrusher28]

Well after just a few weeks all of my Zoa frags that my friend was babysitting died. They melted in record time as soon as i put them in his tank.
He doesn't have have any other zoanthids in this tank due to allergies/sensibility to palytoxin so i don't have any comparision. The only thing i can get from this is the usual fatality rate of 100%. If they close up, their fate is already sealed. I have now also removed the last Alien Explosions from my tank. Colony of hundreds of polyps growing like weeds... gone.
Lets hear from your experience. Even a small improvement would be a success. I didn't even want to look into my tank in the last few weeks due to frustration and i am close to restarting that whole thing.

Yeah, that is so insanely frustrating and I am in the same boat as you. Almost completely disinterested in the tank because of a lack of success, but I am going to keep up the fight because I am also supper stubborn. As for an update, I have seen what I believe to be very minor improvements in open polyps since the introduction of the live rock. However, at the same time there could be some physiological or expectation bias because I am desperately hoping for a solution. As an extra measure I also just received my BRS order and dosed the tank with PNS pro Bio. I will keep updating as I go!