Need Advice Please

[KIRBLIT]

Long story short, I have had 2 fish (tailspot blenny & kole tang) in QT for the last year and a half awaiting their new home in my new 500 gallon system that is now ready. For the life of me I cannot figure out why my tailspot keeps flashing and I need some advice. @Humblefish @HotRocks @4FordFamily @melypr1985

Background:
Both fish have been through copper last Dec for 30 days. The Hanna tester was not an option back then so I made up a gallon of water at 2ppm copper (coppersafe) using it as a reference for the api test kit. I added 2.17ml to that gallon and went with that as my 2ppm reference. I dosed a 20 gal tank (18.3 actual gallons) with 36ml to get around 2ppm. Dosed replacement water change water before adding to the tank to maintain therapeutic level and tested with API to make sure the level stayed therapeutic. Everything went fine for the 30 days. The blenny was still flashing near his gills so I did 2 prazi treatments 6 days apart. He was still flashing after that so I gave it some time to see if it was related to old wounds. Never did a freshwater dip (was scared).

Fast forward to now over a year later and the blenny is still flashing (still primarily around gills and midsection) and will sometimes bite his tail and the Kole still acts skiddish but not head shaking skiddish, just jumpy. I just finished another 2 rounds of prazi because I haven't seen any outward signs of ich this whole time and velvet would have killed them long ago. Well the blenny was still flashing so I decided to do the FW dip on both of them thinking I may have resistant flukes, not scared anymore after doing it. I didn't see anything at all come off after 5min on either one. I have since bought a Hanna for copper and decided to test my copper reference water from a year ago and it was 2.77ppm so the treatment should have worked....in theory.

So the only thing I can think of is that the copper treatment didn't work for some reason and I need to repeat a 14 day copper with a transfer to a sterile tank? I just don't know where to go from here I don't know what to try next. They both seem healthy and they eat well but I don't want to risk my other fish without some input. Ich is the only thing I can think of that could have stayed out of sight this long and everything else would have killed them by now. Any advice is appreciated because I'm at a loss.

 

[Sashaka]

While you wait for advice from Humblefish, HotRocks, 4FordFamily, and melypr1985, I'll share some personal experiences of flashing issues with my fish over the years. I believe that I've had fish flash due to low grade infections. Miind you, in my case there was no visible signs of infection for me to go on, but I knew my fish were not infected with ich or velvet (99% sure anyway). Like you, I had treated with copper for 30 days at medicinal levels. The fish continued to flash for months with no signs. In my case it was my midas blenny that was flashing and biting it's tail. I finally decided to try treating the antibiotics trifecta. It may be coincidence, but after treatment, the flashing stopped.

Another time I caught my fish flashing and checked my parameters (as we probably all do when we see our fish acting strange), and my nitrates were VERY, VERY high. I still don't know why I had the spike in nitrates, but l did almost a complete water change and the flashing stopped.

I don't have any scientific evidence that the flashing of my fish was caused by infection and/or high nitrates. It's all anecdotal belief based on an end to the flashing coinciding with the antibiotics treatment and a clearing up of high nitrates.

I hope you are able to figure out the problem with your fish. You're in good hands with the experts you've called upon for help.

 

[KIRBLIT]

Thanks for the input, I hope I get it figured out too. They seem healthy and I know fish flash once in a while anyway, it's just he flashes a few times in a row every 15 min or so and it doesn't seem right.

 

[JDnKY]

#reefsquad

 

[HotRocks]

I doubt anything made it through copper at that concentration.

I would say you have something else going on. Maybe some Uronema or Brook that's enough to be an irritation but not cause too much trouble.

Have you treated with metronidazole at all? A bacterial issue is possible but doesn't normally present itself in the gills and cause flashing.

What about feeding food soaked meds? Do you ever see any white stringy poop?

 

[KIRBLIT]

I doubt anything made it through copper at that concentration.

I would say you have something else going on. Maybe some Uronema or Brook that's enough to be an irritation but not cause too much trouble.

Have you treated with metronidazole at all? A bacterial issue is possible but doesn't normally present itself in the gills and cause flashing.

What about feeding food soaked meds? Do you ever see any white stringy poop?

Thanks for the response.
No, I haven't treated with any metro, I always thought that those would have killed much faster with how long I have had them in that tank (year and a half) . Are those parasites more opportunistic when immune system is down and can exist for a long time without killing?

Poop looks totally normal for both and I never fed any dewormer for that reason.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Uronema and brook, though they have the potential to be deadly to any fish... are known to especially target certain species. None of those species are your two fish.

Also, the fact that they were treated with copper might have “suppressed” the parasites, even though it doesn’t kill them.

I agree it would be a good idea to do a rally bath on both (acriflavine) followed by 14 days of metroplex and metroplex/focus soaked foods- to be safe.

More info on the bath here:
Acriflavine
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh....php?threads/Acriflavine.282887/&share_type=t

 

[KIRBLIT]

Uronema and brook, though they have the potential to be deadly to any fish... are known to especially target certain species. None of those species are your two fish.

Also, the fact that they were treated with copper might have “suppressed” the parasites, even though it doesn’t kill them.

I agree it would be a good idea to do a rally bath on both (acriflavine) followed by 14 days of metroplex and metroplex/focus soaked foods- to be safe.

More info on the bath here:
Acriflavine
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh....php?threads/Acriflavine.282887/&share_type=t

Thanks for the reply. Would you recommend doing the 90 min rally bath and then put into a new sterile qt tank to do the metro treatment?

 

[Sashaka]

Thanks for the input, I hope I get it figured out too. They seem healthy and I know fish flash once in a while anyway, it's just he flashes a few times in a row every 15 min or so and it doesn't seem right.

Yes. That is what my fish was doing. I couldn't take watching it in discomfort for so long, every day, so after several months I treated with antibiotics. I had already tried Prazipro, Rally and a freshwater dip with no change in behavior. I figured I didn't have anything to lose by trying the antibiotics. Whatever was bothering my fish, the antibiotics 'seemed' to take care of it.
Good luck

 

[KIRBLIT]

I performed the ruby bath and 2 weeks of metro treatment like instructed and I still see the blenny flash once in a while a couple of times in a row on his side and I'm at a complete loss. Anything else besides doing copper again just in case, or do I chalk it up to something behavioral? The blenny and the kole seem perfectly fine other than the darn blenny flashing once in a while and in the last year and a half in qt I have never seen a speck of anything ever on them. @HotRocks @4FordFamily @ngoodermuth

 

[HotRocks]

I performed the ruby bath and 2 weeks of metro treatment like instructed and I still see the blenny flash once in a while a couple of times in a row on his side and I'm at a complete loss. Anything else besides doing copper again just in case, or do I chalk it up to something behavioral? The blenny and the kole seem perfectly fine other than the darn blenny flashing once in a while and in the last year and a half in qt I have never seen a speck of anything ever on them. @HotRocks @4FordFamily @ngoodermuth

I had a resistant strain of flukes pop up in my DT once. Have you treated these guys with prazi? That would be the last thing based on your description.

 

[KIRBLIT]

I had a resistant strain of flukes pop up in my DT once. Have you treated these guys with prazi? That would be the last thing based on your description.

Yes. I treated with prazi twice 6 days apart and then did freshwater dips on both fish a week after the last treatment and nothing came off and that's when @ngoodermuth reccomended to do the metro treatment because I have covered everything else already with previous treatments. I mentioned in the first post everything I had done and copper early on was the only thing I questioned because of the API testing only back then. They have been in qt so long I know it's not velvet and ich would be the only thing I could think of that could be hiding at all.

 

[HotRocks]

Yes. I treated with prazi twice 6 days apart and then did freshwater dips on both fish a week after the last treatment and nothing came off and that's when @ngoodermuth reccomended to do the metro treatment because I have covered everything else already with previous treatments. I mentioned in the first post everything I had done and copper early on was the only thing I questioned because of the API testing only back then. They have been in qt so long I know it's not velvet and ich would be the only thing I could think of that could be hiding at all.

Yeah, my issue with the API kit was I was overdosing because it tends to read lower than the actual level. So I doubt you have ich or velvet lingering still... I'm sorry I wish I had more insight here.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Can you get a video of the flashing?

 

[KIRBLIT]

Can you get a video of the flashing?

Yes I will try to get one tonight. It's only the blenny that will flash, I have never seen the kole flash at all.

 

[Sashaka]

How high are your nitrates? I know I don't have any scientific evidence to back up my theory here, just anecdotal experiential evidence after keeping multiple saltwater tanks for about 10 years, but if my nitrate climb really high, my fish will flash. My theory? High nitrates and/or poor water quality can irritate fish too, especially fish without scales like the blenny. Just another possibility to consider.

 

[KIRBLIT]

Can you get a video of the flashing?

I finally had a chance to get a good video of him flashing because I haven't seen him do it in several days when I can watch. I caught these 2 flashes about 5 minutes apart and he flashed 2 times in a row before I could start recording about 10 minutes before these. I still cannot see anything that is on him but all 4 flashes were on his left side towards his tail. Don't mind the kole in the background attacking his reflection lol.

 

[ngoodermuth]

It almost look like he is maybe getting territorial with his reflection on the bottom of the tank... but, he looks perfectly healthy to me at any rate. Maybe he just gets itchy sometimes?

I know these things can drive you crazy if you worry about them too much. I have 7 wrasses in my tank, 5 of them are sand sleepers. They all occasionally flash against the sand... presumably to kick up critters to eat, but sometimes it just looks like they want to scratch. I was getting a little anxious about it, so when I had to rehome one of my other fish for being aggressive, I did a freshwater dip to "spot-check" and it was all clear... no flukes.

You've covered all of the basics, I wouldn't worry too much unless you start feeling like it is incessant or he is looking or behaving differently otherwise.

 

[HotRocks]

It almost look like he is maybe getting territorial with his reflection on the bottom of the tank... but, he looks perfectly healthy to me at any rate. Maybe he just gets itchy sometimes?

I know these things can drive you crazy if you worry about them too much. I have 7 wrasses in my tank, 5 of them are sand sleepers. They all occasionally flash against the sand... presumably to kick up critters to eat, but sometimes it just looks like they want to scratch. I was getting a little anxious about it, so when I had to rehome one of my other fish for being aggressive, I did a freshwater dip to "spot-check" and it was all clear... no flukes.

You've covered all of the basics, I wouldn't worry too much unless you start feeling like it is incessant or he is looking or behaving differently otherwise.

I agree with this^. Don't drive yourself crazy.

A fish that is scratching or flashing because of an issue related to worms or parasites will do it constantly. You don't usually have to look for it.

 

[KIRBLIT]

I agree with this^. Don't drive yourself crazy.

A fish that is scratching or flashing because of an issue related to worms or parasites will do it constantly. You don't usually have to look for it.

It almost look like he is maybe getting territorial with his reflection on the bottom of the tank... but, he looks perfectly healthy to me at any rate. Maybe he just gets itchy sometimes?

I know these things can drive you crazy if you worry about them too much. I have 7 wrasses in my tank, 5 of them are sand sleepers. They all occasionally flash against the sand... presumably to kick up critters to eat, but sometimes it just looks like they want to scratch. I was getting a little anxious about it, so when I had to rehome one of my other fish for being aggressive, I did a freshwater dip to "spot-check" and it was all clear... no flukes.

You've covered all of the basics, I wouldn't worry too much unless you start feeling like it is incessant or he is looking or behaving differently otherwise.

Thank you both, makes me feel better, I'm starting to go a little crazy at this point. I'm trying to get them in my new 300 because I want to add them before my 12" naso (he's been living with just a clown and mandarin for the last couple of years) and they are now holding it up a bit. I may do TTM for good measure so I can sleep a little better though. My naso is 7 years old and my clown just turned 14 so I don't want to risk anything unnecessarily.