Nitrates — is my eyeball method crazy?

[KenRexford]

On the reef nitrate is extremely low - yet there is algae. How?

From what I have read in the literature, if I remember correctly, the idea is that the flow of water makes the difference. While low in total levels, so much water passes by the algae that it is constantly able to pick up the nitrates. If you have a closed system with, say, X amount of nitrates, then only X amount of nitrates is possible. If 1/10 of X is in water flowing past the coral 10 times per day, it grabs 1/10th X ten times and never depletes the total system.

The flaw in this reasoning, if you will, is that the tank is not a closed system. Food is introduced to critters who process the food over time and release nitrates. Leftover food rots over time. Denitrifying bacteria work over time. Hence, the "closed system" also has a "flow." The flow is from nitrate producers to nitrate consumers.

In the ocean, the same thing happens, I would imagine. If water flows past a coral on a straight line from A to B ( it doesn't but bear with me), then your source of producers is everything along the line from A to B. Consumers also run from A to B, but they are spread out as well. Just the flow is greater from water movement than from slow-release producers, I would imagine.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, let me see if I understand correctly. The normal test kits may very well be somewhat useless in telling me if I have too much in the way of nitrates, because I will 0 out not matter what I do, due to algae masking any increases.

No. They are not useless for telling if you have too much, and most kits are suitable for saying you may have too little.

 

[Joedubyk]

Too low may be worse than too high. I'd try to ensure there is some nitrate.

THIS x 100000. Not enough nitrates can and will starve and kill corals... Many folks, including myself w/ SPS dom tanks, *aim* for at least 20-25 ppm nitrates. 50 woudn't even kill anything.

 

[Joedubyk]

On the reef nitrate is extremely low - yet there is algae. How?

Actaully, I've seen studies in INdo where nitratres are quite high. 30-60ppm at times

 

[92Miata]

THIS x 100000. Not enough nitrates can and will starve and kill corals... Many folks, including myself w/ SPS dom tanks, *aim* for at least 20-25 ppm nitrates. 50 woudn't even kill anything.

I, again, do not understand why the OP is adamant that this can not be true.

Stripping a tank of nutrients kills coral way faster than it kills algae.

25 years ago it was almost impossible to do, because the equipment wasn't very good - bit nowadays it's easy, and common. Especially with carbon dosing.

 

[MnFish1]

Actaully, I've seen studies in INdo where nitratres are quite high. 30-60ppm at times

Yes - with upwellings - but its my understanding that they rapidly drop. BTW - This is probably 'heresy' - I'm not sure its 'nitrate' thats a problem - I think its all the other stuff we aren't measuring - other organics (not trace elements) - that likely are causing issues in our systems

 

[Joedubyk]

I, again, do not understand why the OP is adamant that this can not be true.

Stripping a tank of nutrients kills coral way faster than it kills algae.

25 years ago it was almost impossible to do, because the equipment wasn't very good - bit nowadays it's easy, and common. Especially with carbon dosing.

10000x, Ive done it myself and we see it EVERY messing day on this site. Corals pale,t hen they die, everything is fine, nutrients are 0 what could be wrong?

And people say ''but why test, my corals are looking fine!" Yeah, they could be starving and by the time they dont look fine, it 's already farrrrr too late.

One of my friends that I personally know in the hobby had dinos. I told him to get nutrients up. He did some dino fighting thing w/ carbon dosing/h202. He got rid of dinos, killed corals, and then the dinos came right back lol. It's cool. It's all a learning experience and we've all probably done it.

 

[Joedubyk]

Yes - with upwellings - but its my understanding that they rapidly drop. BTW - This is probably 'heresy' - I'm not sure its 'nitrate' thats a problem - I think its all the other stuff we aren't measuring - other organics (not trace elements) - that likely are causing issues in our systems

Nope. It's folks completely parroting old paradigms about nutrients needing to be close to zero as possible.

 

[MnFish1]

I, again, do not understand why the OP is adamant that this can not be true.

Stripping a tank of nutrients kills coral way faster than it kills algae.

25 years ago it was almost impossible to do, because the equipment wasn't very good - bit nowadays it's easy, and common. Especially with carbon dosing.

In almost every ocean in the world - nitrate is less than 20 - and mostly less than 10 - and often - at least according to the study shown - close to zero. How do you explain this - is it because - there is always a 'trace' - even if its close to zero in teh ocean - but in our tanks - we can use chemicals that cause an imbalance that actually drops it to true zero? (I think thats probably true) .

 

[MnFish1]

Nope. It's folks completely parroting old paradigms about nutrients needing to be close to zero as possible.

Here is the study that I found - comparing nitrates at 10 meters and nitrates at 1000 meters - around the world. If you look at the graph - the vast majority of the worlds oceans have 0 (or close to 0) nitrates. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3682741/

 

[Joedubyk]

In almost every ocean in the world - nitrate is less than 20 - and mostly less than 10 - and often - at least according to the study shown - close to zero. How do you explain this - is it because - there is always a 'trace' - even if its close to zero in teh ocean - but in our tanks - we can use chemicals that cause an imbalance that actually drops it to true zero? (I think thats probably true) .

But they're still getting BOMBARDED with nutrients, just because the # is low, that's not what is really happening. In our tanks with low levels, they're copmletely getting underfed. Seen it 100x. Heavy import heavy export is mimicking mother nature imo... those are the best tanks and ones that do regular wc

 

[Joedubyk]

Here is the study that I found - comparing nitrates at 10 meters and nitrates at 1000 meters - around the world. If you look at the graph - the vast majority of the worlds oceans have 0 (or close to 0) nitrates. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3682741/

But they're still likely getting absolutely bombarded with nutrients. the actualy # in the water column/ocean is irrelevant.

 

[X-37B]

Mine stay around 5 or less.
Po4 runs .02-.04.
Standard kits are good for testimg no3 levels.
Within these ranges all is good with little to no algae issues.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

But they're still likely getting absolutely bombarded with nutrients. the actualy # in the water column/ocean is irrelevant.

IMO, the biggest issue is not water flow, but the fact that they get a lot of N from ammonia and particulates that they eat.

 

[MnFish1]

But they're still getting BOMBARDED with nutrients, just because the # is low, that's not what is really happening. In our tanks with low levels, they're copmletely getting underfed. Seen it 100x. Heavy import heavy export is mimicking mother nature imo... those are the best tanks and ones that do regular wc

I don't disagree - I think many people have problems with 'too low xxx' - because they are dosing products to lower those things - that was my point. Because - I think there is a really fine balance between too much and too little 'carbon' addition. So - if we're really concerned with 'nitrate' and 'phosphate' - water changes can take care of these problems - without all of the other additions, chemicals, trace elements, fickle chaeto, etc - IMHO

 

[92Miata]

10000x, Ive done it myself and we see it EVERY messing day on this site. Corals pale,t hen they die, everything is fine, nutrients are 0 what could be wrong?

And people say ''but why test, my corals are looking fine!" Yeah, they could be starving and by the time they dont look fine, it 's already farrrrr too late.

One of my friends that I personally know in the hobby had dinos. I told him to get nutrients up. He did some dino fighting thing w/ carbon dosing/h202. He got rid of dinos, killed corals, and then the dinos came right back lol. It's cool. It's all a learning experience and we've all probably done it.

Seriously.
We go through this ridiculous cycle of

Newbie: I have algae. My parameters are fine.

Internet: You have algae and your test kits are nonsense. Algae says your water is dirty. Nuke the tank with carbon and gfo

Newbie: all my corals are pale and dying and my algae is worse.

Internet: Nuke harder. Algae.

Newbie: everything is dead and now I have dinos.

Internet : Because new tank/ dry rock! Bleach! Acid! Phosphate in the rocks!

Corals need food and algae is normal on non colonized rock.

 

[KenRexford]

The newbie is a completely different situation. The newbie tank is not established. The original post had to do with the established tank. My tank has been running for 18 years. Granted, I had to replace the actual tank at one point, so that marked a radical change even if the live rock was the same. Plus, I had no clue what I was doing for about a decade. But, when the tank stabilizes, where nitrates are reading on basic lfs test kits at "0," and where the number of fish and corals is proportional to a fairly loaded system, then it seems that the nitrate testing has too many flaws to make much sense. Simply put, how many times do you need to have a "0" with obvious nitrate problems because of a major GHA outbreak before the nitrate testing is deemed pointless in assessing whether there is a nitrate problem? How many times do you need to have a 0 with GHA going bonkers, and then dose say Vibrant and get the GHA destroyed with the same "0," before you realize that the issue is not nitrate "level" but nitrate flow, which "level" cannot read? Sure -- the lfs test kits might suck, but the external lab testing shows essentially the same thing (i.e., Triton, ATI) -- near 0 nitrates/phosphates. How many repeats of the exact same thing tell you more than what you actually see in the tank? The GHA either thrives or doesn't. The corals either thrive or don't.

 

[Potatohead]

Seriously.
We go through this ridiculous cycle of

Newbie: I have algae. My parameters are fine.

Internet: You have algae and your test kits are nonsense. Algae says your water is dirty. Nuke the tank with carbon and gfo

Newbie: all my corals are pale and dying and my algae is worse.

Internet: Nuke harder. Algae.

Newbie: everything is dead and now I have dinos.

Internet : Because new tank/ dry rock! Bleach! Acid! Phosphate in the rocks!

Corals need food and algae is normal on non colonized rock.

This needs to be repeated - Ad nausem. Each tank is different of course but once a tank is established, with good coral growth, it's almost difficult to grow nuisance algae.

My experience is in an established tank dropping nutrients to zero is super bad news. If I get below 1ppm nitrate or ~.06 phos, I start to see it pretty clearly.

 

[Joedubyk]

Seriously.
We go through this ridiculous cycle of

Newbie: I have algae. My parameters are fine.

Internet: You have algae and your test kits are nonsense. Algae says your water is dirty. Nuke the tank with carbon and gfo

Newbie: all my corals are pale and dying and my algae is worse.

Internet: Nuke harder. Algae.

Newbie: everything is dead and now I have dinos.

Internet : Because new tank/ dry rock! Bleach! Acid! Phosphate in the rocks!

Corals need food and algae is normal on non colonized rock.

10000000%

 

[MnFish1]

I have heard that many people say 'hair algae will kill coral' - to me its the opposite - coral covering a tank - will rarely have a GHA problem - but if you take a 200 gallon tank - put in a lot of surface area - and 10 dime sized frags - something is going to grow on the rock.... Or am I all wet