No love for MH?

[jda]

Here is a chart of 20K Radium on electronic vs m80. PPFD (think PAR) difference of 66 to 85, so 29% more output out of a m80.

Blue line on this graph is a 400w Radium on a standard 400w MH ballast - 90 PPFD, so just barely more than a 20k Radium on m80. You can see why Radium 20k are so popular since they are less wattage and still very powerful.

 

[jda]

Here is 14k Phoenix on both m80 and 250w electronic... also a very large bump in output:

 

[topjimmy]

JDA, I've read that the new Hamilton line up is pretty nice. If anyone is running their HQI bulbs, feel free to comment. Would be great to try them out in the future, well that and the Giesemann bulbs.

I'm using a Hamilton Belize sun fixture on my 65. It's got a single 20k 250w Hamilton on center and two T5, an ati blue +and a Hamilton actinic. I love the look, but I worry about the PAR levels. I hope to get the clubs par meter this month and test it.

 

[oreo54]

Hmm, somewhat confusing..

On a normal setting of electronic ballast, it will run at 245 watts. On HQI setting, it will draw around 270 watts whereas on M80 , it will draw 33o watts.

Now bulb watts or system watts for one thing..?

But, this implies that @ 330W (not 250W) vs 400W (but not 400W?) PAR is really similar and determined by current only..
the 250 isn't "more efficient" ...

Just a matter of real watts to the bulb mostly..

sorry it's just confusing...

 

[alton]

Only if BRS would run a half price sale on the open box spectra 6' MH/T5 light they have? I switched to led 100% in 2016 when I moved from a 300 down to a 180. I love the clean look of not having three large pendants sitting on my tank in my living room. Electrical bill savings going down with leds did not happen. In the summer I would run my BML leds 10 hours and only run my halides from 6pm to 9pm. With my leds I run them 10 hours everyday summer or winter. In the winter with halides I would run them 8 hours and never needed a heater, today with leds I have no choice but to run a heater. Like someone said I am missing my halides, especially since BML no longer makes leds for aquariums. BML = Build My Leds out of Austin, Tx. Orphek makes something similar, bit not in 6'

 

[leepink23]

I decided to pull the trigger and order the 48 inch infinity, all the information here in addition to BRS having a 50% clearance pushed me over the edge. This is my first halide, currently have led/t5.

 

[jda]

I tested a whole pile of MH bulbs and some LEDs in an integrating sphere - no T5s since the sphere was only 24". There is no real efficiency that we saw within the margin of error on the equipment. Sure, m80 puts out more par, but it also uses more watts. 175w Radion put out about as many radiated watts as a 175w Halide. We measured wall wattage and also output wattage with a huge resistor... the MH ballasts and IR loss (about 2%) was pretty even with the power supply loss from the LEDs.

As Tullio Dell Aquila talks about in his presentation at the San Diego MACNA, any real efficiency is just in measurement by mostly concentrating output in a range where a LUX or other visible light meter will capture it and it TOTALLY misleading. Using a wider spectrum meter, they all are pretty even. He does a great job of explaining this - this video is a must-watch for any enthusiast.

When using a PAR meter with MH, remember that there is red, IR, violet and UV that it emits that corals can use that the meter will not capture. This is true with some T5 bulbs too and the more advanced LED panels like Orphek which have IR and UV. 300 PAR from a MH is a lot more light than 300 PAR from a LED. This is all a bit subjective, but you can find a chart for your PAR meter sensor and just eyeball it and get a rough idea.

 

[MnFish1]

I tested a whole pile of MH bulbs and some LEDs in an integrating sphere - no T5s since the sphere was only 24". There is no real efficiency that we saw within the margin of error on the equipment. Sure, m80 puts out more par, but it also uses more watts. 175w Radion put out about as many radiated watts as a 175w Halide. We measured wall wattage and also output wattage with a huge resistor... the MH ballasts and IR loss (about 2%) was pretty even with the power supply loss from the LEDs.

As Tullio Dell Aquila talks about in his presentation at the San Diego MACNA, any real efficiency is just in measurement by mostly concentrating output in a range where a LUX or other visible light meter will capture it and it TOTALLY misleading. Using a wider spectrum meter, they all are pretty even. He does a great job of explaining this - this video is a must-watch for any enthusiast.

When using a PAR meter with MH, remember that there is red, IR, violet and UV that it emits that corals can use that the meter will not capture. This is true with some T5 bulbs too and the more advanced LED panels like Orphek which have IR and UV. 300 PAR from a MH is a lot more light than 300 PAR from a LED. This is all a bit subjective, but you can find a chart for your PAR meter sensor and just eyeball it and get a rough idea.

Thanks - this is interesting. Im curious though - many 'experts' - suggest that Coral need PAR of 100-250 and will do fine. So they set their LEDs at 30-40% for 5 hours a day. I happen to ascribe to the idea (my own idea - lol) - that If the sun goes up on the equator in the summer at 6AM - and sets at 10PM - why do some only light their corals for such a short time. To me - the benefit of the LED is I can 'dial it up - over hours - and I dial it up to the maximum (100% on all channels) - at which point 1 inch under water the PAR is measured at 600-700 - There is some UV as well. But UV doesnt penetrate that far into the water (or?). I was not aware that IR penetrates into water (except as heat). thanks again as usual for your thoughtful reply

 

[jda]

"Coral" is too fine of a term. Some might "do fine" under 100-250 PAR, but some will not. It is best to identify which kind. I keep acropora and clams and they nearly all do better at 400-600, but some like to be in the 250 range. Yes, you can keep some alive with less, but just keeping them alive is not my goal - I want them to thrive. I have seen this kind of advice come from all kinds of places, but please do not trust it if it is from a light manufacturer - most of their "expert advice" serves themselves and not the hobby.

Then, there is the matter of survival vs. thriving. I keep a few Z&P in my tanks along with a few LPS every once in a while. They get a massive amount of PAR too. Light quality is also high. The zoas grow so fast that I have to kill them with kalk - this makes people mad because they are mostly collector strains, but I can turn a 5 polyp frag of Utter Chaos, for example, into 400-500 polyps in about nine months where you see a ring of new heads every few days. They grow like wildfire in high intensity light with good water quality. Do they need that much light? Doubtful. Can they be better with it? For sure.

Most of what we keep in our tanks is collected on one breath with a big hunk collected in knee or waist deep water. IR and UV can both penetrate well to 3-5 meters. There is no doubt that coral in the wild get it. Dana Riddle just posted a few charts about water penetration of light in different types (clarity) water - while the dude who he references has taken a lot of heat for his techniques and measurements, you can see the 1 meter values which probably give a rough estimation. When we were in the coral sea, the marine biologist there said that light from 350 to about 800 nm penetrates to 10 meters, but nobody in their area went below 3 to 5 meters to collect - they used snorkel and mask or waded in pools at low tide.

I don't have any comments about ramping. While it is not as natural, the 10 hours on/off on a light timer that is mostly dogma has yet to be beaten by ramping, so I just tend to subscribe to the "enough light for enough time" kind of theory. I have not really seen any evidence that one truly works better than another, so whatever makes the reefer happy is probably good here.

FWIW - 1 inch directly under my 20k Radiums is about 1700-1800 PAR. These are on 16" reflectors. This would be about 2000 on a 14" reflector and even more on a 12" or smaller reflector.

Why do people strive to "do fine?" These are living animals, so why would "do the best" not apply? Would any of us like to be captured by aliens and get care that is "just fine?" I think that most of us would like a high level of care, so I do not treat the corals with any less.

 

[naterealbig]

I decided to pull the trigger and order the 48 inch infinity, all the information here in addition to BRS having a 50% clearance pushed me over the edge. This is my first halide, currently have led/t5.

Great news! I paid more than that for my used Infiniti fixture . Glad you got a deal. Take a look at the Hamilton 20,000k and Phoenix 14,000k bulbs. Proven performers, and both in/have DE format. What Ballasts are you going to run?

 

[Bpb]

Great news! I paid more than that for my used Infiniti fixture . Glad you got a deal. Take a look at the Hamilton 20,000k and Phoenix 14,000k bulbs. Proven performers, and both in/have DE format. What Ballasts are you going to run?

It was tempting to snatch one of those. Much as I would love to go back to halides my calcium reactor feed pump situation needs attention. I feel like losing the calcium reactor function would be far more detrimental than staying with t5ho longer

 

[MnFish1]

"Coral" is too fine of a term. Some might "do fine" under 100-250 PAR, but some will not. It is best to identify which kind. I keep acropora and clams and they nearly all do better at 400-600, but some like to be in the 250 range. Yes, you can keep some alive with less, but just keeping them alive is not my goal - I want them to thrive. I have seen this kind of advice come from all kinds of places, but please do not trust it if it is from a light manufacturer - most of their "expert advice" serves themselves and not the hobby.

Then, there is the matter of survival vs. thriving. I keep a few Z&P in my tanks along with a few LPS every once in a while. They get a massive amount of PAR too. Light quality is also high. The zoas grow so fast that I have to kill them with kalk - this makes people mad because they are mostly collector strains, but I can turn a 5 polyp frag of Utter Chaos, for example, into 400-500 polyps in about nine months where you see a ring of new heads every few days. They grow like wildfire in high intensity light with good water quality. Do they need that much light? Doubtful. Can they be better with it? For sure.

Most of what we keep in our tanks is collected on one breath with a big hunk collected in knee or waist deep water. IR and UV can both penetrate well to 3-5 meters. There is no doubt that coral in the wild get it. Dana Riddle just posted a few charts about water penetration of light in different types (clarity) water - while the dude who he references has taken a lot of heat for his techniques and measurements, you can see the 1 meter values which probably give a rough estimation. When we were in the coral sea, the marine biologist there said that light from 350 to about 800 nm penetrates to 10 meters, but nobody in their area went below 3 to 5 meters to collect - they used snorkel and mask or waded in pools at low tide.

I don't have any comments about ramping. While it is not as natural, the 10 hours on/off on a light timer that is mostly dogma has yet to be beaten by ramping, so I just tend to subscribe to the "enough light for enough time" kind of theory. I have not really seen any evidence that one truly works better than another, so whatever makes the reefer happy is probably good here.

FWIW - 1 inch directly under my 20k Radiums is about 1700-1800 PAR. These are on 16" reflectors. This would be about 2000 on a 14" reflector and even more on a 12" or smaller reflector.

Why do people strive to "do fine?" These are living animals, so why would "do the best" not apply? Would any of us like to be captured by aliens and get care that is "just fine?" I think that most of us would like a high level of care, so I do not treat the corals with any less.

Right - Its just funny - you will see many people here saying - OH GOSH - my par is 300 - its going to bleach my coral. Thanks again for the thoughtful response.

 

[naterealbig]

You didnt answer the question - its ok - you didn't have a PAR meter? or something else - Just dont frame it as something it isn't. This is not designed to slam you. There is no such thing as a definition for a 'used quality fixture' Come on - thats like saying - I bought a used Toyota Camry because they have a great resale value. But ignores that fact that the car was in a flood.

This makes no sense. You are making a huge leap to the assumption that I would ignore the stated condition of the item I was purchasing..... And there is such a thing as a used quality lighting fixture (and cars) - I have purchased them.

 

[naterealbig]

I wonder why? Curious - do the ones you know and trust send you spectral plots? IMHO - you get what you pay for all the time , everytime.

I don't know why - they just don't. And no, the majority of companies I trust post spectral plots on their websites available for everyone to see...... The ones who don't have sent them when I asked












*edit** Here is an example of a reply to one of the requests (to another company selling on ebay) I was lucky enough to hear back from......

 

[naterealbig]

That’s interesting. On my reefer 525 I went from drawing almost 900 watts for two 400 watt MH to drawing 155 watts for 3 Hydra 26 HD’s.

Makes sense - I'm not running 400 w metal halides. And, my tank has a much larger footprint than the 525. (My display has a 48" x 38" footprint)

 

[leepink23]

Great news! I paid more than that for my used Infiniti fixture . Glad you got a deal. Take a look at the Hamilton 20,000k and Phoenix 14,000k bulbs. Proven performers, and both in/have DE format. What Ballasts are you going to run?

Looking at getting the m80

 

[naterealbig]

I don't know why - they just don't. And no, the majority of companies I trust post spectral plots on their websites available for everyone to see...... The ones who don't have sent them when I asked

Here is an example of a reply to one of the requests (to another company selling on ebay) I was lucky enough to hear back from......

 

[biecacka]

I am pretty sure my eBay bulbs came from different batches. You can really tell the difference when they first fire on. Once the bulb warms up and they blend, I cannot see a difference at all. But upon starting one is significantly more blue than the other.

As JDA stated, the 250 radium on the m80 ballast is a beast. I ran the 400 radium for awhile and was talked down into 2 250 watts on m80 ballasts so I switched to that. I am curious to try the Hamilton 20k, Dave assures me that I will love it so I’m gonna try it next. I think he hopes I like it so much I’ll ditch my big ugly reflectors and buy some fixtures from him too.
If I had a fixture I would want something sleek which would need most likely a DE bulb.

Corey

 

[MnFish1]

This makes no sense. You are making a huge leap to the assumption that I would ignore the stated condition of the item I was purchasing..... And there is such a thing as a used quality lighting fixture (and cars) - I have purchased them.

Sorry if I made a huge leap - one of the problems on forums like this is that the poster 'knows what they mean' the readers have to try to decide what they mean. Of course there is good quality used stuff - and No where did I suggest that it wasnt available nor did I say you would do - 0r not do something. That said - I stand by what I said - and again will say part of it may relate to misunderstanding. But - when someone says - buy a 20 K bulb because it will look like a 14 K bulb - it makes not sense. at all. Sorry - It just doesnt.

 

[MnFish1]

From what I recall from the Tullio presentation, there is no objective standard for a 20K or a 14K light, and maybe even a 10K light. It is all just made up by the bulb manufacturer based on the visual appearance of the light. You should not expect that a 14K bulb from different manufacturers will look the same. Hence the statement that a 20K Radium on M80 looks more like a 14K Phoenix. The ballast selection also affects the appearance significantly.

This really doesn't make sense. Then why use the criteria. Ie 'I want a 20K bulb' if it's meaningless. The more I hear the comments here the more it seems like its all subjective.