No love for MH?
- Thread starter riche
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That's frustrating.
The entire paper goes into depth about tracking the coral geometry without ever being able to say which changes are responsive to too much or too little light excitation.
Bpb
2500 Club Member
No kidding. We are all not so fortunate as to 8-10k in lighting equipment likely gifted to us. I’m curious as to how many units they sold based on his and paletta’s endorsements alone? Funny thing also. I’d wager a lot of the big time sps collectors now haven’t ever even heard of either of those guys.
I agree w/ you but the point wasn't cost (well mostly not).. just the magic photons...(couldn't resist)
I deleted the speculation part ..
NOW before you go all dogma on me I'll freely admit there ARE differences between light sources.. Physics dictates it.. What they mean is still a relevant question and NOT answered fully...
Believe what you want.. and use what you want.....I don't care..
Hard Core "Collectors" of any kind are sort of a breed on their own and, frankly, have little to do w/ "little people"
for fun.. 10's of $1000's of dollars of Metal Halides..
https://www.orafarm.com/about/ora/
USED equip for sale.. worth a look..
http://www.reefsystems.com/categories/Used-Aquariums-{47}-Equipment/
Sorry.. Just saw the date................
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Bpb
2500 Club Member
I care not what people use either and I’ve not been in the discussion over then differences in characteristics or effectiveness from different sources. My hang up with the led industry is the misinformation on cost of operation and upkeep. Sps collectors may not be a majority, but they outnumber those in the income category that feel no sting when spending 5-10 grand in fish tank lights. So I feel like the budget argument is relevant.
biecacka
Valuable Member
I agree w/ you but the point wasn't cost (well mostly not).. just the magic photons...(couldn't resist)
I deleted the speculation part ..
NOW before you go all dogma on me I'll freely admit there ARE differences between light sources.. Physics dictates it.. What they mean is still a relevant question and NOT answered fully...
Believe what you want.. and use what you want.....I don't care..
Hard Core "Collectors" of any kind are sort of a breed on their own and, frankly, have little to do w/ "little people"
for fun.. 10's of $1000's of dollars of Metal Halides..
https://www.orafarm.com/about/ora/
USED equip for sale.. worth a look..
http://www.reefsystems.com/categories/Used-Aquariums-{47}-Equipment/
Sorry.. Just saw the date................
Yeah it is outdated. I live 15 minutes from Todd(owner) and he does have a pile of stuff for sale, but it’s not as big as that. It needs updated. A few years back I think I bought his last 2 lumenarc large reflectors. But none the less, he switched to DIY leds, then the next year to orpheks and now he last few years to radions.
Corey
US was built on that..
Misinformation and grandiose marketing..Look this is for "Fun" not for argument per se..
COST always matters to most.. Need/Wants... and afford..
Current cost of LED's (like Chinese Black Boxes) is equiv. to MH's...so throw your Chinese black box out every 2 years..whether it works or not..
Oh yes "stated wattage" is not REAL wattage..unlike MH's..so there is that..
Then we go round and round about spectrum..
Geisseman MH/t5/(LED) aren't cheap either..
480W of light..
https://www.ebay.com/i/292593920226...MIrKGLk4O64wIVy8DACh3mjQieEAQYAiABEgJkj_D_BwE
$104 w/ timer (can get cheaper) effective real watts is probably around 112
So $104 x 4.3 =$447...
You get the picture.. Even fully replacing one every year still beats $1000 plus bulb replacements..
Then we go round and round about spectrum..
alton
Valuable Member
The changing of MH lamps every year was the biggest waste of lamps ever known. In the 10+ years of using Reeflux / Radium / Phoenix 250 w SE lamps the average was 16 to 18 months with only a 10% drop in par when I changed my lamps. I had one lamp go 24 months with only one dropping 10% at 12 months. I had several reefers over to my home and I bet them which lamp was 1 month old and which was 24 months and they couldn't figure it out because there was no color change and human eyes can't tell 10% change in Par or foot candles.
And it would take 2 x 100 watt black boxes to equal a 250 watt SE Reeflux / Radium / Phoenix lamp installed in a Lumenbright pendant. I tried /tested the 100 watt Mars Aqua leds. I loved the color but at 50% I only achieved a Par reading of 200 in the center, after one year I had to crank it up to 100% to keep the 200 Par reading in the middle. With my MH I was achieving 200 on the sand in a 27" deep tank. The following Mars where on my 180 24" deep tank mounted 12" above the tank to get even lighting. One the left and center where at 50%, the one on the right which I had for a year was at 100%
And it would take 2 x 100 watt black boxes to equal a 250 watt SE Reeflux / Radium / Phoenix lamp installed in a Lumenbright pendant. I tried /tested the 100 watt Mars Aqua leds. I loved the color but at 50% I only achieved a Par reading of 200 in the center, after one year I had to crank it up to 100% to keep the 200 Par reading in the middle. With my MH I was achieving 200 on the sand in a 27" deep tank. The following Mars where on my 180 24" deep tank mounted 12" above the tank to get even lighting. One the left and center where at 50%, the one on the right which I had for a year was at 100%
you don't dim MH's.....s00...
anyways it was to point out that expense is relative...
http://www.personal.psu.edu/sbj4/aquarium/articles/MetalHalideLamps2.htm
Changes in PPFD as compared to a new 20,000 K Osram/Radium lamp
disclaimer: things might have changed since this study.. like better ballasts, different phosphors ect..but one of the reasons to post it..
anyways it was to point out that expense is relative...
http://www.personal.psu.edu/sbj4/aquarium/articles/MetalHalideLamps2.htm
Changes in PPFD as compared to a new 20,000 K Osram/Radium lamp
Apparently depends on lamp..
THAT is an issue for old "PAR" meters like the Apogee series and Seneye..
For those "complaining" about LED marketing FUD.. How much did that cost?
disclaimer: things might have changed since this study.. like better ballasts, different phosphors ect..but one of the reasons to post it..
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I liked the post - but I'm sorry I don't quit understand it. Thats probably because you didnt quote the initial post you were responding to? I cant tell if your pro MH Pro LED or pro neither - just making a couple points - and I"m interested in the pointsyou don't dim MH's.....s00...
anyways it was to point out that expense is relative...
http://www.personal.psu.edu/sbj4/aquarium/articles/MetalHalideLamps2.htm
Changes in PPFD as compared to a new 20,000 K Osram/Radium lamp
Apparently depends on lamp..
THAT is an issue for old "PAR" meters like the Apogee series and Seneye..
For those "complaining" about LED marketing FUD.. How much did that cost?
disclaimer: things might have changed since this study.. like better ballasts, different phosphors ect..but one of the reasons to post it..
Bpb
2500 Club Member
you don't dim MH's.....s00...
anyways it was to point out that expense is relative...
http://www.personal.psu.edu/sbj4/aquarium/articles/MetalHalideLamps2.htm
Changes in PPFD as compared to a new 20,000 K Osram/Radium lamp
Apparently depends on lamp..
THAT is an issue for old "PAR" meters like the Apogee series and Seneye..
For those "complaining" about LED marketing FUD.. How much did that cost?
disclaimer: things might have changed since this study.. like better ballasts, different phosphors ect..but one of the reasons to post it..
Recommending a new hobbyist buying their first ever lighting is a different story than people changing over working lights in an effort to save money.
But beyond that I completely disagree with your cost comparison analysis. You tend to back up your physics arguments at least with some scholarly peer reviewed research, and I can respect that. But your cost comparison is pretty juvenile in comparison to your light physics arguments. Even you, am obviously educated person should realize that.
Anyone with any skin in the game who can differentiate differences in construction quality and warranty support knows good and well the class of product you get in a giesemann Infiniti does not equal what you get in a bottom of the barrel black box.
When I make my cost comparisons I at least take two realistic and fair considerations into account. I’m not comparing a $200 48” 700 watt oddysea mh t5ho combo against a pair or Orphek atlantik v4’s. It’s an unfair comparison. One is clearly better manufactured, and to be frank I’d trust better not to burn my house down (based on user reviews). One also produces some ugly bulbs, having seen them first hand on the oddysea.
I am also considering the argument of money saving by SWITCHING. I’m not talking about finding a clearance shelf discontinued giesemann infinity, with giesemann bulbs (if we are talking the most expensive current modern mh fixture) versus buying new (or used) black boxes. Of course the black boxes would be cheaper. Even if you buy them up to the same wattage. It’s an unrealistic and unfair comparison.
Nobody is comparing a Ferrari to a Ford Focus when deciding whether import or domestic vehicles are more or less expensive than the other here in the US. Numbers are numbers.
If you want to be fair and compare watts to watts on the same quality class product, compare the cost of a pair of currently available 2x250 watt Hamilton cayman sun reflectors with their bulbs and ballasts, which are excellent build, fit, and finish for this type of product, to 2-xr30’s plus an X-ray-15 which will be roughly the same wattage.
$600
Or
$2100
We can talk resale if you want but that’s highly
Variable. I see people selling both mh and led gear used at near close to cost. I got my 3x250 watt lumen bright pendants with ballasts in basically mint condition for $80 plus an “IOU frag pack one day in the future” so I can’t be super subjective and say obviously the decision for me is a no brainer.
But I’m trying to be objective here. I’m also talking about the the cost of Metal
Halide products versus led products. Im not talking about t5’s or hybrid units which that giesemann is.
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I liked the post - but I'm sorry I don't quit understand it. Thats probably because you didnt quote the initial post you were responding to? I cant tell if your pro MH Pro LED or pro neither - just making a couple points - and I"m interested in the points
People buy black boxes and dim the channels (fear of red or want deep blue) .. Nobody dims MH's..USUALLY. Raise lower ok dimming.
I'm really not pro or con either.. Each tech has it's use and strengths and weaknesses..NOR do I tell people what to do or not to do..To each their own..
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TheGreatWave
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The changing of MH lamps every year was the biggest waste of lamps ever known. In the 10+ years of using Reeflux / Radium / Phoenix 250 w SE lamps the average was 16 to 18 months with only a 10% drop in par when I changed my lamps. I had one lamp go 24 months with only one dropping 10% at 12 months. I had several reefers over to my home and I bet them which lamp was 1 month old and which was 24 months and they couldn't figure it out because there was no color change and human eyes can't tell 10% change in Par or foot candles.
And it would take 2 x 100 watt black boxes to equal a 250 watt SE Reeflux / Radium / Phoenix lamp installed in a Lumenbright pendant. I tried /tested the 100 watt Mars Aqua leds. I loved the color but at 50% I only achieved a Par reading of 200 in the center, after one year I had to crank it up to 100% to keep the 200 Par reading in the middle. With my MH I was achieving 200 on the sand in a 27" deep tank. The following Mars where on my 180 24" deep tank mounted 12" above the tank to get even lighting. One the left and center where at 50%, the one on the right which I had for a year was at 100%
I too noticed I could use a MH for up to two years. At that point it's just guilt. lol
Unfortunately I didn't have a par meter then. I couldn't notice a difference it was so gradual.
Point is cost is relative..
I freely admit MH's are probably the most "cost effective" entry point in this "hobby" and work just fine..
But that is for others to decide how much they want to invest..
That's universal across any hobby..
you think people w/ simple MH's do not year for a Geisseman??? Of course they do. Some... Call it a bar to reach..
Nothing in this thead points says "guide to beginning Reefing"....where your main argument seems to be..
Just as black box people may long for Orphek Atiantiks..
Point was there are cheap entry points regardless of tech...By implying LED bb's are crap compared to MH isn't fair.. or frankly nice even if true
on a certain level..
People always make up their 0wn mind regardless of what you or I say/show..
AND will crunch their own numbers.. I presented a WAY to look at it, which you don't like..so?
Point is to show the WHOLE picture which I think I try to do even if as a counter point to others..
Anyone here would grab a Geisseman or Radion if given free..
Who would turn it down by saying "it's not good enough"..????
The tech doesn't "manufacture" the photons, which is THE whole game. construction aside..
The day the corals look up and say "wow German engineering" is the day I stop drinking..so build is irrelevant to them.
Resale is not a subject important for most and fluctuates SOOOO much w/ markets and buyers..
Nothing and I mean nothing is WORTH ANYTHING till someone buys it.."intrinsic value" except in scrap is mostly a game..
Someday those fancy Geissemans or Atlantiks (name anything here) will have value only to collectors of history, like buggy whips..
Obviously that day is not here yet.
Bpb
2500 Club Member
I’ll only reply to this chunk, as the rest is a tangent onto discussions you’ve been having with others. I’m not getting into what generates better photons. I freely admit there are led users with better looking tanks than I presently enjoy. Having given an honest go at all 3 main forms of modern hobby light tech, I know what works best based on my skill level and budget, and what has presented more challenges and unhappiness. I digress.
I’m sure some people would yearn for a giesemann fixture. I can’t speak for them and I’m not one of them. I prefer large independent reflectors as I value function over form 10 times out of 10. Just stating my own preferences. I don’t care what others like.
I have failed to adequately illustrate my personal point and feelings. I don’t care what new hobbyists use. I largely stay out of “what kind of lighting should I use” threads in new hobby forums because most of those people will be inactive and have sold their tanks within a year. I’m happy to share opinions among a multiple choice format, but the days of me caring at all about what a new hobbyist does are gone. My comments of switching versus a new buy were misleading I admit. I was illustrating mainly that with my cost comparison is mainly in the realm of people who change their preexisting lighting. I simply stated examples of new products of different classes for objective comparison only.
Yes, I will say black boxes are crap compared to a giesemann Infiniti, or even brand new Hamilton gear. Not sorry. Not concerned if someone thinks it’s nice. I’ve owned both, it is my opinion on what is built with attention to detail and what is not. The build quality of an oddysea (mh) is crap compared to that of an Orphek (led). I’m not comparing style of light generation. I’m comparing construction quality and taking care to keep comparisons among products in the same level of manufacture
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