Not off to a great start

[Reef Kinetics]

Thank you. I will attempt the calibration this evening after I get home from work. Where is the calibration procedures as I don't see them in the manual, or does the app walk you through it?

For the Nitrate test being potentially resolved, what was the fix? Was support able to remote into my Bot and adjust settings? First, if that is possible then that is cool as far as getting help, but raises a couple questions about network security and why my systems timings are out vs everyone else's.

Please don't take my questions out of context as a negative, I appreciate the help and hope to get the Bot running smoothly, but I like to understand the process and these questions would probably get asked by other people researching the lab as a viable option.

Additionally, I have submitted a request for the Dev access for access to the API. Hoping to successfully integrate into Home Assistant.

Apologies as this was a mistake, you only ran one phosphate test and its result was theoretically accurate(In case you did not run the high range kit when having a low range of phosphate). The support team can view the results based on the RK number provided to better ***** the issues of our users, and we can edit some settings in the device to better adjust and address some issues. However, we do not nor have access to edit any value or change any internal settings in your mobile app or dashboard nor we can rectify anything nor we can collect data and passwords. Otherwise our app would not be accepted in google or app store in the first place. I hope this answer gives you an ease of mind in terms of security and that we are only viewers to help the users whenever they run into an issue.

As for calibration; go to device - maintenance - Select "Test chamber Calibration" and perform test. Your device will then turn green and the testing chamber will fill with sample water, once it is finished(LED turns blue), kindly use the dropper provided to measure the amount of water left in the testing chamber, ideally it should be 10ml, in all cases, enter the value in the popup screen that will show on the mobile app at the same page, if it is 10ml, you should not do anything more, if more or less, please restart the calibration test till you have 10ml(+-0.1ml). Make sure to put 2 small stirrer magnets inside the testing chamber during this test and all other tests.

As for the API access, we will check this and send you required data soon. Have a great day.

 

[Inamo]

The majority of users do not input the correct value, and will tend to leave the default full vial as their setting, for this reason, we have made a safe margin of around 45-50% capacity to avoid losing reagents and failed tests. We are currently looking for better ways to address this

I can respect the err on the side of caution. I'm not 100% sure as I didn't look closely, but thought I noticed it, doesn't the 60ml container have the measurements on the side? I ask because I would venture to say RK has done all it can to ensure the user has all the tools and info to correctly update the app.

I have not measured to see how far the needle goes into the 20/60ml containers, I just would personally like to use up more regeant before refilling to ensure I get rid of more of the "old" before mixing with the new and risking it expiring and giving inaccurate results.

I plan on doing a more though of an in-depth review once I can really test everything out and give an honest and fair review. Just some ideas from what I have seen this far; I know the manual being lacking has been mentioned, but I looked at the manual a few times to make sure I didn't miss anything and even toyed with the app for 20+ minutes(could use some streamlining, but will give feedback after more use, to soon) just to ensure I didn't need to "prime" the system before first use. Didn't want to waste reagent on a dry test. Which, come to find out this is taking care of during the rinse at the begining. Not sure if there is an actual prime, or some of the rinse was dry prior to the ro/tank water reaching the chamber. Which also, it would probably be beneficial to add a capability to add a empty/purge setting so all water can be removed from the lines in case of needing to store the Bot due to a move, extended take maintenace or for an emergency like tank being down for a leak(knock on wood). Don't think the RO line would have as much of an issue as the tank water line would. Also, would be nice to be able to flush the lines occasionally as part of extended maintence.

Just a couple ideas for the RK team.

 

[Inamo]

Apologies as this was a mistake, you only ran one phosphate test and its result was theoretically accurate(In case you did not run the high range kit when having a low range of phosphate). The support team can view the results based on the RK number provided to better ***** the issues of our users, and we can edit some settings in the device to better adjust and address some issues. However, we do not nor have access to edit any value or change any internal settings in your mobile app or dashboard nor we can rectify anything nor we can collect data and passwords. Otherwise our app would not be accepted in google or app store in the first place. I hope this answer gives you an ease of mind in terms of security and that we are only viewers to help the users whenever they run into an issue.

As for calibration; go to device - maintenance - Select "Test chamber Calibration" and perform test. Your device will then turn green and the testing chamber will fill with sample water, once it is finished(LED turns blue), kindly use the dropper provided to measure the amount of water left in the testing chamber, ideally it should be 10ml, in all cases, enter the value in the popup screen that will show on the mobile app at the same page, if it is 10ml, you should not do anything more, if more or less, please restart the calibration test till you have 10ml(+-0.1ml). Make sure to put 2 small stirrer magnets inside the testing chamber during this test and all other tests.

As for the API access, we will check this and send you required data soon. Have a great day.

Yes, I only did one phosphate test. I was just going through the different ones I had setup to test function, and will retest and manual test for comparison today or in the next couple days. My tank is in the middle of a fishless cycle so I wasn't to worried on reported levels as could be all over the place. Thank you again.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The majority of users do not input the correct value, and will tend to leave the default full vial as their setting, for this reason, we have made a safe margin of around 45-50% capacity to avoid losing reagents and failed tests. We are currently looking for better ways to address this

IMHO - the vial's safe volume should be the actual calculated volume at which the needle will draw air plus a small safety factor.

I shouldn't have to refill vials every 11 tests instead of every 20 tests because some people are too stupid or lazy to enter the actual fill amount when they fill/refill the vial.

I travel for 7-10 days at a time (thus the desire for the bot) and I certainly don't want my pre-trip tasks to ALWAYS include topping off vials before I leave.

 

[mfollen]

Nothing but headaches these machines are.

 

[Inamo]

IMHO - the vial's safe volume should be the actual calculated volume at which the needle will draw air plus a small safety factor.

I shouldn't have to refill vials every 11 tests instead of every 20 tests because some people are too stupid or lazy to enter the actual fill amount when they fill/refill the vial.

I travel for 7-10 days at a time (thus the desire for the bot) and I certainly don't want my pre-trip tasks to ALWAYS include topping off vials before I leave.

What I did while I was at work today, I just added +20ml to the 60ml containers so I could get through the test. Once I measure to see how far the needle goes I'll dial in my own numbers with a small safety margin.

 

[Reef Kinetics]

IMHO - the vial's safe volume should be the actual calculated volume at which the needle will draw air plus a small safety factor.

I shouldn't have to refill vials every 11 tests instead of every 20 tests because some people are too stupid or lazy to enter the actual fill amount when they fill/refill the vial.

I travel for 7-10 days at a time (thus the desire for the bot) and I certainly don't want my pre-trip tasks to ALWAYS include topping off vials before I leave.

Hello Ben and Frank, the team adjusted the vial limits today for the actual level + a small safety range. Apologies for the inconvenience, this has been taken care of today

 

[Cell]

I'm loving this thread and the interaction and responsiveness from RK. I have an immense appreciation for companies that actually listen to it's customers feedback and try to continually improve.

 

[Reef Kinetics]

I'm loving this thread and the interaction and responsiveness from RK. I have an immense appreciation for companies that actually listen to it's customers feedback and try to continually improve.

Thank you for your appreciation! We do our best to keep our customers satisfied, whatever needs to be done to make the best experience they can have is done asap, we do not stall issues that can be solved momentarily. Our customer base is the reason why we advance and progress and that is what keeps us going!

 

[Inamo]

Hello Ben and Frank, the team adjusted the vial limits today for the actual level + a small safety range. Apologies for the inconvenience, this has been taken care of today

That is great news. I better put mine back to the correct settings then

I'm loving this thread and the interaction and responsiveness from RK. I have an immense appreciation for companies that actually listen to it's customers feedback and try to continually improve.

From what I can tell, they have been in their FB group, but as of late they are getting much more involved here on R2R. @HadyOss liked the suggestion I had on the "Empty/Purge" capability. He said they were going to add it. I have zero complaints when dealing with RK. They have been pleasant to deal with thus far and seem eager to take in ideas and evolve the Bot more.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Here is where I am currently.

I have tried several different reagent kits (same brand and different brands) to try to get an idea of both accuracy and repeatability.

My dosing is automated and steady, spread out over the day in micro doses, there are no swings. I use the triton system.

Phosphate - I just can't get accurate results. Manual tests put me in the .1 to .2 range and the reefbot mostly in the 0 to .02 range, sometimes .04. It is "repeatable" I guess.. but does not appear to be accurate against the manual tests with RedSea or Hanna.

Nitrate - Read 0 - this may be close but Manual test using various brands read between 3 and 5.

Magnesium - reefbot results fluctuate between 1100 and 1180 with random 1240 or 1280 mixed in - this is a rather broad range. My actual mag is closer to 1300 as verified by the same reagents used in the bot and several other manual tests including a Hanna Checker. There is no way magnesium swings like this. It would be one thing if the bot results were consistent but 200 low, the issue here is the swing range makes the results absolutely useless.

Alkalinity - I have a GHL KH director. My KH is very steady and currently running around 10dkh. I have tried several different reagent packages in the reefbot. It was steady and albeit a bit low for a few days early on, but over the last 2 weeks has become rather unreliable. The results are not stable and are low compared to a manual test with the same reagents used in the bot, a Hanna Checker, and 2 other brands of test kits. The results are rather useless.

Calcium - is a bit more stable than the others, but still swings between 380 an 410. I run closer to 420 as confirmed buy other test kits. The reefbot results are closer but still drift up and down.

I have run calibrations, watched the machine operate and replaced syringes and needs, hoping to get more consistent results.

The only time things "improve" is when I let Hady on the Facebook Group know that I am having issues. I could be 100% wrong, but that (unfortunately) makes it feel like RK folks are individually tweaking results or calibrations on a user/device level for users who report problems. If that is the case, it is untenable and unsustainable.

I will repeat the fact that if they can get the device to provide consistent results, even if they are a bit off, then a simple mapping style calibration in the USER interface would suffice. I absolutely don't want RK support (if it is in fact happening) tweaking my calibration or results behind the scenes. As I said, that is not a sustainable paradigm by any stretch of the imagination.

I will give this another week, but 3 solid weeks of manual testing and tweaking and things are not where they need to be. I purchased this device to be hands off and done nothing but fiddle with it.

 

[areefer01]

Here is where I am currently.

I have tried several different reagent kits (same brand and different brands) to try to get an idea of both accuracy and repeatability.

My dosing is automated and steady, spread out over the day in micro doses, there are no swings. I use the triton system.

Phosphate - I just can't get accurate results. Manual tests put me in the .1 to .2 range and the reefbot mostly in the 0 to .02 range, sometimes .04. It is "repeatable" I guess.. but does not appear to be accurate against the manual tests with RedSea or Hanna.

Nitrate - Read 0 - this may be close but Manual test using various brands read between 3 and 5.

Magnesium - reefbot results fluctuate between 1100 and 1180 with random 1240 or 1280 mixed in - this is a rather broad range. My actual mag is closer to 1300 as verified by the same reagents used in the bot and several other manual tests including a Hanna Checker. There is no way magnesium swings like this. It would be one thing if the bot results were consistent but 200 low, the issue here is the swing range makes the results absolutely useless.

Alkalinity - I have a GHL KH director. My KH is very steady and currently running around 10dkh. I have tried several different reagent packages in the reefbot. It was steady and albeit a bit low for a few days early on, but over the last 2 weeks has become rather unreliable. The results are not stable and are low compared to a manual test with the same reagents used in the bot, a Hanna Checker, and 2 other brands of test kits. The results are rather useless.

Calcium - is a bit more stable than the others, but still swings between 380 an 410. I run closer to 420 as confirmed buy other test kits. The reefbot results are closer but still drift up and down.

I have run calibrations, watched the machine operate and replaced syringes and needs, hoping to get more consistent results.

The only time things "improve" is when I let Hady on the Facebook Group know that I am having issues. I could be 100% wrong, but that (unfortunately) makes it feel like RK folks are individually tweaking results or calibrations on a user/device level for users who report problems. If that is the case, it is untenable and unsustainable.

I will repeat the fact that if they can get the device to provide consistent results, even if they are a bit off, then a simple mapping style calibration in the USER interface would suffice. I absolutely don't want RK support (if it is in fact happening) tweaking my calibration or results behind the scenes. As I said, that is not a sustainable paradigm by any stretch of the imagination.

I will give this another week, but 3 solid weeks of manual testing and tweaking and things are not where they need to be. I purchased this device to be hands off and done nothing but fiddle with it.

Thank you for the update. Takes time to put that together in a calm way for people to read.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I've tried this tactic with focustronic. When I got an alkatronic, there were so many issues that I started corresponding with them behind the scenes. They were receptive to my findings and ideas, but 4 years later they still having addressed any of the issues.

Bean, you definitely have more patience than me, I would've stopped trying to help after realizing nothing is changing.

Although, In their defense they should be reluctant to make immediate changes across the community without allowing some time to test them and ensure it doesn't cause unforseen problems.

I also get that they probably should've had the foresight to extensively test this before making it public.

Being privy to beta testing for some of these bigger reefing companies, I conclude that even when issues are identified they still choose to roll it out anyway.

With focustronic I thought I was giving them gold and I'm sure all they were thinking is that I should just stay in my lane.

 

[Reef Kinetics]

Here is where I am currently.

I have tried several different reagent kits (same brand and different brands) to try to get an idea of both accuracy and repeatability.

My dosing is automated and steady, spread out over the day in micro doses, there are no swings. I use the triton system.

Phosphate - I just can't get accurate results. Manual tests put me in the .1 to .2 range and the reefbot mostly in the 0 to .02 range, sometimes .04. It is "repeatable" I guess.. but does not appear to be accurate against the manual tests with RedSea or Hanna.

Nitrate - Read 0 - this may be close but Manual test using various brands read between 3 and 5.

Magnesium - reefbot results fluctuate between 1100 and 1180 with random 1240 or 1280 mixed in - this is a rather broad range. My actual mag is closer to 1300 as verified by the same reagents used in the bot and several other manual tests including a Hanna Checker. There is no way magnesium swings like this. It would be one thing if the bot results were consistent but 200 low, the issue here is the swing range makes the results absolutely useless.

Alkalinity - I have a GHL KH director. My KH is very steady and currently running around 10dkh. I have tried several different reagent packages in the reefbot. It was steady and albeit a bit low for a few days early on, but over the last 2 weeks has become rather unreliable. The results are not stable and are low compared to a manual test with the same reagents used in the bot, a Hanna Checker, and 2 other brands of test kits. The results are rather useless.

Calcium - is a bit more stable than the others, but still swings between 380 an 410. I run closer to 420 as confirmed buy other test kits. The reefbot results are closer but still drift up and down.

I have run calibrations, watched the machine operate and replaced syringes and needs, hoping to get more consistent results.

The only time things "improve" is when I let Hady on the Facebook Group know that I am having issues. I could be 100% wrong, but that (unfortunately) makes it feel like RK folks are individually tweaking results or calibrations on a user/device level for users who report problems. If that is the case, it is untenable and unsustainable.

I will repeat the fact that if they can get the device to provide consistent results, even if they are a bit off, then a simple mapping style calibration in the USER interface would suffice. I absolutely don't want RK support (if it is in fact happening) tweaking my calibration or results behind the scenes. As I said, that is not a sustainable paradigm by any stretch of the imagination.

I will give this another week, but 3 solid weeks of manual testing and tweaking and things are not where they need to be. I purchased this device to be hands off and done nothing but fiddle with it.

Hello Bill,

We appreciate your feedback and want to ensure clarity on certain matters. Let's address a few points to prevent any misconceptions:

1. Support and Rectification: We actively monitor and address issues with test results. Remote individual adjustments are only made when there is something unusual. Our support team proactively contacts users upon detecting issues and does not wait for users to initiate contact. Our intention is to provide seamless assistance.

2. Test Parameter Updates: When suggesting test parameter changes, like in the case of the API KH test, we aim to ensure the best user experience. Updates are typically tested on a smaller scale before a broader rollout to ensure accuracy. When you were asked to try the 0.5dkh step test instead of the 1dkh it was to help you with your results in addition to make sure that it is reported properly before updating it to all of our users. We hope that this point is very clear and not taken out of context.

3. Magnesium Test: ReefBot's accuracy aligns with the test kit used. If discrepancies are observed, a calibration test is usually an effective solution to restore accuracy, especially that all of your results are consistent around 1080-1120 ppm.

4. Alkalinity Results: Consistency issues in results may stem from reagent quality or quantity. To troubleshoot, verifying reagent freshness or sufficiency is recommended. Your 9-10 dkh results were consistent, however the bad results were caused by uninterpreted results as color chart generated does not match the manual. I will ask a support agent to contact you about this.

5. Nitrate Test: In API nitrate tests, the results should correspond to their predetermined ranges. The test will read 0, 5, 10.. ppm, if it is giving you 0 ppm it usually means that it is always less than 5ppm.

6. Phosphate Test: Some users have reported issues with the redsea phosphate test, in which most of them later told us that this issue was fixed when they tried a new kit or when they mixed the original bottles before pouring it into the vials to refill. Often, refreshing reagents or cleaning the mixing chamber can resolve similar colorimetric inconsistencies in case the prior doesn't fix it.

N.B: Cleaning the chamber is not often at all as the device cleans itself in each test, but with similar issues it can be a fix.

Regarding your support experience, we couldn't locate any interactions from you through our support channels. If you could provide further details on where you contacted us, it would greatly assist in knowing where you had a bad experience with the support team.

Feel free to reach out if you have further queries or concerns.

Have a great day!

Best regards,

 

[Reef Kinetics]

I've tried this tactic with focustronic. When I got an alkatronic, there were so many issues that I started corresponding with them behind the scenes. They were receptive to my findings and ideas, but 4 years later they still having addressed any of the issues.

Bean, you definitely have more patience than me, I would've stopped trying to help after realizing nothing is changing.

Although, In their defense they should be reluctant to make immediate changes across the community without allowing some time to test them and ensure it doesn't cause unforseen problems.

I also get that they probably should've had the foresight to extensively test this before making it public.

Being privy to beta testing for some of these bigger reefing companies, I conclude that even when issues are identified they still choose to roll it out anyway.

With focustronic I thought I was giving them gold and I'm sure all they were thinking is that I should just stay in my lane.

Hello,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this matter. We understand your perspective and concerns.

Indeed, finding the right balance between swift changes and ensuring the stability of the system can be a complex challenge. We appreciate your acknowledgment of the careful testing and consideration required for updates to avoid unforeseen issues. We test devices thoroughly individually and always prefer to test any feature in our labs before making it public, however in some instances, it would be difficult to test some scenarios in our labs as it would be related to a certain set-up for example so we would take permission from certain users who wish to test some features and when it is ready we announce it to all of our users.

Rest assured, we remain committed to continuous improvement and value all contributions in this journey.

If you have any further insights or questions, feel free to share. Your feedback helps us shape our approach for the better.

Best regards,

 

[BeanAnimal]

1. Support and Rectification: We actively monitor and address issues with test results. Remote individual adjustments are only made when there is something unusual. Our support team proactively contacts users upon detecting issues and does not wait for users to initiate contact. Our intention is to provide seamless assistance.

You looked at my results to prepare this response, they have clearly been unusual but support has not contacted me. Nonetheless, as the user base grows how is this a sustainable?

3. Magnesium Test: ReefBot's accuracy aligns with the test kit used. If discrepancies are observed, a calibration test is usually an effective solution to restore accuracy, especially that all of your results are consistent around 1080-1120 ppm.

The problem is twofold, it does not align with the test kit used (same reagent bottles in parallel with manual testing) and the results swing too much. What calibration are we talking about here? The testing chamber calibrations have nothing to do with accuracy as long as the chamber is filling to a least 10ml. The syringes are not drawing air and the stirrers are spinning.

4. Alkalinity Results: Consistency issues in results may stem from reagent quality or quantity. To troubleshoot, verifying reagent freshness or sufficiency is recommended. Your 9-10 dkh results were consistent, however the bad results were caused by uninterpreted results as color chart generated does not match the manual. I will ask a support agent to contact you about this.

Brand new RedSea (two different lot numbers) would not return a readable result so I purchased NEW API. The bot with 1dkh resolution was 1 to 2 dkh low compared to GHL and Hanna. With the new .5 resolution the results are all over the place.

6. Phosphate Test: Some users have reported issues with the redsea phosphate test, in which most of them later told us that this issue was fixed when they tried a new kit or when they mixed the original bottles before pouring it into the vials to refill. Often, refreshing reagents or cleaning the mixing chamber can resolve similar colorimetric inconsistencies in case the prior doesn't fix it.

2 reagent batches tried and mixed before pouring into the vials, both RedSea

Regarding your support experience, we couldn't locate any interactions from you through our support channels. If you could provide further details on where you contacted us, it would greatly assist in knowing where you had a bad experience with the support team.

I have been working directly with Hady on Facebook via DM.

Respectfully, your response paints the picture that there really are no problems other than the need to try new reagents and do some calibration. That is exactly what I have been doing for 3 weeks. I have purchased over ~$900 worth of test kits and new Hanna checkers to try to get stable and accurate results. I am in direct contact with several other users who are having the same experience. The goal here was a hands-off experience and instead I fiddle with the bot daily and do dozens of manual tests trying to figure out what is wrong with the bot or spot check it’s results.

I am willing to give this one more week before I seek a refund.

 

[Reef Kinetics]

You looked at my results to prepare this response, they have clearly been unusual but support has not contacted me. Nonetheless, as the user base grows how is this a sustainable?


The problem is twofold, it does not align with the test kit used (same reagent bottles in parallel with manual testing) and the results swing too much. What calibration are we talking about here? The testing chamber calibrations have nothing to do with accuracy as long as the chamber is filling to a least 10ml. The syringes are not drawing air and the stirrers are spinning.


Brand new RedSea (two different lot numbers) would not return a readable result so I purchased NEW API. The bot with 1dkh resolution was 1 to 2 dkh low compared to GHL and Hanna. With the new .5 resolution the results are all over the place.



2 reagent batches tried and mixed before pouring into the vials, both RedSea


I have been working directly with Hady on Facebook via DM.

Respectfully, your response paints the picture that there really are no problems other than the need to try new reagents and do some calibration. That is exactly what I have been doing for 3 weeks. I have purchased over ~$900 worth of test kits and new Hanna checkers to try to get stable and accurate results. I am in direct contact with several other users who are having the same experience. The goal here was a hands-off experience and instead I fiddle with the bot daily and do dozens of manual tests trying to figure out what is wrong with the bot or spot check it’s results.

I am willing to give this one more week before I seek a refund.

It is still Monday, we contacted you here once checking your results

Our user base is a driving force behind our progress and expansion. As our community grows, we're able to enhance our support resources and capabilities.

However, I'd like to clarify that Hady is not a support agent, he may be contacted by some users and he would help them, but for immediate assistance, I recommend using other support avenues. You can reach out to us via email at [email protected], create a ticket on our website, or initiate a chat on the mobile app.

To provide a more detailed response, we will send you an email. Please know that we're dedicated to resolving your concerns and ensuring a positive experience for you. Have a productive day!

 

[Inamo]

Hello Ben and Frank, the team adjusted the vial limits today for the actual level + a small safety range. Apologies for the inconvenience, this has been taken care of today

I adjust my volumes to the correct numbers in the app and when I selected the test I got a message/email stating.

• You've reached the maximum allowed consumption. Please reset and refill your API Calcium 2 before testing again.

At first I didn't think it was even testing. App never showed the test pending or inprogress. I readjusted my volumes to +20 for the 60ml bottles and tried to run the test and then it told me there was one already pending. App still did not show anything. Tried force closing the app and reopening it, still did not show anything.

Also, I submitted a API request last week and have not heard anything back. If this could be looked into I would appreciate it.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I adjust my volumes to the correct numbers in the app and when I selected the test I got a message/email stating.

• You've reached the maximum allowed consumption. Please reset and refill your API Calcium 2 before testing again.

At first I didn't think it was even testing. App never showed the test pending or inprogress. I readjusted my volumes to +20 for the 60ml bottles and tried to run the test and then it told me there was one already pending. App still did not show anything. Tried force closing the app and reopening it, still did not show anything.

Also, I submitted a API request last week and have not heard anything back. If this could be looked into I would appreciate it.

Just a WAG here but I think they updated the volume setting and then reverted back to the old setting, as my tests are now too failing due to too little volume in a half full vial

This goes to my continued insistence that ALL firmware/software changes be logged in a publicly assessable change log and in a linear format where version numbers for software/firmware are incremented with ANY change pushed. Anything less is poor software management and I urge RK to adopt such a standard software development paradigm immediately.

I too submitted an API access request weeks ago and have not heard back either.

 

[Inamo]

I know that was mentioned a few times, so I added it to the request tracker. Hoping that will help get vis on issues/request.

As a bandaid I +20 all my 60ml bottles and +10 the 20ml bottles. I'm still in a tank cycle, so not testing very much yet.