Noticing a alarming trend

[rayn]

Nobody talked about bacteria in a bottle when I started, it was either shrimp cycle or a fish. I can't/don't/won't condone a fish cycle. Nature has cycled everything and knows best. We try to speed that process up and we get thumped on the head by nature...every time. It may not come right away, but she rears her mighty power at some point.

 

[robert]

Yes Doug, it's the old practice of using fish to cycle your tank. I did it 20 years ago with my first tank, to be honest. Then someone told me what it does to the gills and I couldn't do it anymore. It also irritates the skin as evidenced by frequent shedding in lions and fish darting for whatever reason fish dart when irritated.

No - actually its not the same at all -

 

[runzwithscissors]

I agree with fresh live rock setting the tank up quickly and possibly not having a cycle. That isn't my point. As mentioned I am not spending hundreds of dollars on rock that I can get to the same point with a little patience. There are others out there that won't or simply can't buy rock like that.

Bottled bacteria can speed it up, but that may be part of the problem.

Throwing dead meat starts the cycle. Just stocking slowly, on a new tank, isn't a smart option.

This is all about starting a cycle.

Agreed. Also to keep in mind that "cycled" lr from your lfs is usually just dead rock loaded with tons of purple up. There has to be a distinction from fresh shipped lr to you that contains a lot of sponges and other stuff that creates die off, ergo a fresh cycle.

 

[rayn]

Yours saying the corals and other inverts consume the ammonia that the fish produce, as I understand it.

 

[robert]

Yes - within reason - a coral is two creatures - the "animal" portion produces waste ammonia to feed the "plant" portion the zoox. But the "plant portion can use more than the host produces in most cases provided enough light,

A coral will uptake excess ammonia from the water in to feed the zoox - meaning you can immediately add a limited number of fish so long as you keep enough photosynthesizers to offset the waste the fish produce -

Once the nitrifying bacteria build in a little - you can increase the fish load further. There are advantages to this approach.

 

[robert]

If you think about it...your actually makeing your own live rock from cured dead rock and corals...minus the bacteria of course...but you can always add a bottle or two if you like...

 

[rayn]

Gotta be honest. First time I have ever heard of this approach. Intriguing, but still gotta think it can't be as good as a fully cycled tank.

I will try and look into this to be fair.

 

[runzwithscissors]

Yes - within reason - a coral is two creatures - the "animal" portion produces waste ammonia to feed the "plant" portion the zoox. But the "plant portion can use more than the host produces in most cases provided enough light,

A coral will uptake excess ammonia from the water in to feed the zoox - meaning you can immediately add a limited number of fish so long as you keep enough photosynthesizers to offset the waste the fish produce -

Once the nitrifying bacteria build in a little - you can increase the fish load further. There are advantages to this approach.

Robert, I have no doubt that your process probably works for you. But wouldn't you agree that for the newbie that knows nothing, that this process probably entails a lot of water testing and a higher probability of failure for a newcomer to reefing?

 

[robert]

That would be an initial take on it but it really isn't anymore difficult - like I said its actually easier in many respects. The only testing required is salinity, temp and ammonia...pretty much the same as the traditional cycle...

 

[rayn]

Actually this kinda goes along with a post I read the other day, and I can't remember who wrote it or I would give them credit. You are on rather accelerated time table though.

Point was though, cycle the tank. Allow the tank to be for a few weeks empty after the cycle. Start stocking corals. Then start stocking fish.

This enables the pod population to grow, which happens along the way, and allows the tank a bit of time for maturity.

 

[mcarroll]

Agreed. Also to keep in mind that "cycled" lr from your lfs is usually just dead rock loaded with tons of purple up. There has to be a distinction from fresh shipped lr to you that contains a lot of sponges and other stuff that creates die off, ergo a fresh cycle.

The stuff that gets spouted off and attributed to LFS's...seems to get deeper every week. LOL

I guess I can't speak for where you shop specifically, but for the benefit of anyone else:

That is NOT what live rock from a local fish store usually is.

There's more and more man-made rock being sold, so you may see some of that on the market but it should be labeled as such and it generally looks man-made.

Still that's not what you describe. I've never heard of what you described. [emoji6]

Not sure what that has to do with cured vs uncured rock either, which I suspect is what you meant there at the end.

If so, yes there is a distinction. Cured vs uncured. :-)

To be clear:

Cured rock is clean and ready to go, but does have less macro life on/in it.

Uncured rock has all the stuff you mentioned, as well as evil hitchhikers - and all are usually in a dead, dying and/or decaying state due to semi-dry state of transit.

Uncured rock is very rare these days. My guess is that you would be as unlikely to see live rock packed in water as you would see old-school uncured rock these days.

Be there on the day your store receives their rock shipment and you will get as close as possible.

 

[robert]

Here is a link which you might enjoy - not only because it is a nice tank - but because as you will see - the tank is pretty much stocked, fish and corals together, starting on day one. Not my tank - but the same approach I have evolved into using, although I use frags nems and clams instead of colonies. More fun that way and cheaper too.

 

[rayn]

Wait a sec! Right off he let that tank mature for THREE months. There is the cycle I am talking about.

 

[runzwithscissors]

The stuff that gets spouted off and attributed to LFS's...seems to get deeper every week. LOL

I guess I can't speak for where you shop specifically, but for the benefit of anyone else:

That is NOT what live rock from a local fish store usually is.

There's more and more man-made rock being sold, so you may see some of that on the market but it should be labeled as such and it generally looks man-made.

Still that's not what you describe. I've never heard of what you described. [emoji6]

Not sure what that has to do with cured vs uncured rock either, which I suspect is what you meant there at the end.

If so, yes there is a distinction. Cured vs uncured. :-)

To be clear:

Cured rock is clean and ready to go, but does have less macro life on/in it.

Uncured rock has all the stuff you mentioned, as well as evil hitchhikers - and all are usually in a dead, dying and/or decaying state due to semi-dry state of transit.

Uncured rock is very rare these days. My guess is that you would be as unlikely to see live rock packed in water as you would see old-school uncured rock these days.

Be there on the day your store receives their rock shipment and you will get as close as possible.

Have to disagree with you on that one. I have been there when several of my lfs's got their "live" rock in. I even opened one of the boxes. It had been sitting around somewhere for awhile. Really bad stuff. Got mine from Walt smith, shipped to me and picked up at the airport cargo area myself. Opened the box and it smelled just like the ocean. I still had do do a cure because of the sponges etc. Only took a couple of weeks because it was fresh. I've seen many lfs use purple up to charge more for lr

 

[robert]

He let his rock cure - yes - I think that is what I said.
The rock doesn't have to be cycled - just dead and cured and organics free.
I cure my rock - originally man made - by soaking.

The point is that the traditional add a shrimp or ammonia - wait two weeks or so - test -then a fish - then months later your first coral etc...is not the only way.

 

[runzwithscissors]

Unless you pay for air freight, even the lfs will get boat rock. 2 weeks or so to arrive. If you go into an lfs, and they have a tank with dark purple lr, I can guarantee that that is dry rock with purple up. The lfs is NOT going to pay for air freight. It averages a buck a pound from California.

 

[mcarroll]

LOL. You must be The Man when it comes to your local fish stores ordering live rock to be there that many times.

Walt Smith advertising notwithstanding, it had, as likely as anything been sitting on the beach far away waiting to ship. Uncured rock is funky - and that's one reason it's rare these days.

If you are arguing to use Florida Rock due to good proximity or arguing to buy your rock from Walt Smith, then just say so.

There may be good reasons to do both, but not because there's something wrong with Pacific rock like it being full of purple up or it smelling worse. [emoji106][emoji6]

I am glad you had a good experience with your order tho! [emoji106]

 

[mcarroll]

Unless you pay for air freight, even the lfs will get boat rock. 2 weeks or so to arrive. If you go into an lfs, and they have a tank with dark purple lr, I can guarantee that that is dry rock with purple up.

What percentage of live rock do you think comes over from the Pacific via air freight? I admit I have no idea, but I guess it must be close to zero given the weight/cost and the fact that nobody wants to pay even 10 bucks a pound, let alone more.

Anything is possible but once again the last scenario you paint is unlikely, certainly nothing you can guarantee.

Your local fish fish store may take live rock in trade or from a tank breakdown from some people so it could just be established live rock.

There are also man-made options that I have mentioned which may look somewhat like that, but they usually don't look much like real live rock then.

 

[runzwithscissors]

Oh no, lol. Not promoting Walt smith. I'm just a great customer and friend of three or four lfs. Plus I have several good friends who do tank maintenance/installs for wealthier clientele. I know the shortcuts/margins and worst of all--- what they will do or say to make a buck. I am there when their fish shipments also come in (I buy straight from the box). There is truly a difference in lr. [emoji111]

 

[runzwithscissors]

What percentage of live rock do you think comes over from the Pacific via air freight? I admit I have no idea, but I guess it must be close to zero given the weight/cost and the fact that nobody wants to pay even 10 bucks a pound, let alone more.

Anything is possible but once again the last scenario you paint is unlikely, certainly nothing you can guarantee.

Your local fish fish store may take live rock in trade or from a tank breakdown from some people so it could just be established live rock.

There are also man-made options that I have mentioned which may look somewhat like that, but they usually don't look much like real live rock then.

It is dwindling now from the pacific because of the lack of CITIES permits. Too many people abusing our reefs. I don't particularly care for fla lr just because of the preponderance of "bad" hitch hikers. Freight from cal to Detroit is a buck a pound on southwest. There were 5 different pacific producers that have suspended lr shipments with the exception of Fiji. Manado, Vanuatu, Java are all closed for the time being