NPS Sponge in Plumbing?

[docscorals]

Has anyone ever heard of an NPS sponge growing in plumbing? I would have thought the flow would be too much. But, I recently have had an issue with my overflow levels being inconsistent. Now, I have a Red Sea G2 so I thought it was just the diaphragm valve acting up yet again. So, I took it apart as much as I could and cleaned it and the problem continued. So I took a flash light and looked down the overflow pipe and it looked like there was a white NPS sponge covering part of the down drain. Anyone ever heard of that? The flow going through there is pretty fast so like I said, I wouldn’t have thought it possible.

 

[EnterName]

Absolutely possible, I don't think the sponge minds the flow too much. There might be a lot of water passing through, but it always comes from one direction so the sponge can probably adjust.

Scraping it off will probably be insufficient to fully get rid of it. It most likely will regrow from tiny residues. Another possibility would be a bacterial mucus. This stuff can grow under very high flow as well and clog plumbing. Are you carbon dosing by any chance?

 

[docscorals]

Absolutely possible, I don't think the sponge minds the flow too much. There might be a lot of water passing through, but it always comes from one direction so the sponge can probably adjust.

Scraping it off will probably be insufficient to fully get rid of it. It most likely will regrow from tiny residues. Another possibility would be a bacterial mucus. This stuff can grow under very high flow as well and clog plumbing. Are you carbon dosing by any chance?

I am carbon dosing with NP Bacto Balance. I didn’t think about bacteria, it could be that too. It’s situated just beyond my reach unless I completely
disconnect the plumbing. I thought about getting a snake and trying to break it up to deal with it. Even if I have to do it regularly for maintenance unless there’s another option.

 

[UncommonSense]

I’ve definitely seen all manner of filter feeding organisms in plumbing, as is evident from my tank breakdown plumbing graveyard:

overflow boxes in particular get absolutely encrusted, but plumbing also gets its fair share of NPS filter feeders growing in it!

It’s situated just beyond my reach unless I completely
disconnect the plumbing. I thought about getting a snake and trying to break it up to deal with it.

— to clear plumbing on a operating tank, I typically just resort to disconnecting the plumbing subassembly from the tank in question, taking the subassembly outside, blasting it out with a garden hose sprayer, running a pipe snake through it, then blasting it out with the hose again before reassembling!

(The high velocity chlorinated fresh water does a fantastic job of loosening and flushing out any non-calcified organisms, and the pipe snake knocks anything calcified off mechanically before you flush with fresh water yet again, attempting to flush any remaining bits out prior to drip drying, and reassembly!)

 

[docscorals]

I’ve definitely seen all manner of filter feeding organisms in plumbing, as is evident from my tank breakdown plumbing graveyard:

overflow boxes in particular get absolutely encrusted, but plumbing also gets its fair share of NPS filter feeders growing in it!

It’s situated just beyond my reach unless I completely
disconnect the plumbing. I thought about getting a snake and trying to break it up to deal with it.

— to clear plumbing on a operating tank, I typically just resort to disconnecting the plumbing subassembly from the tank in question, taking the subassembly outside, blasting it out with a garden hose sprayer, running a pipe snake through it, then blasting it out with the hose again before reassembling!

(The high velocity chlorinated fresh water does a fantastic job of loosening and flushing out any non-calcified organisms, and the pipe snake knocks anything calcified off mechanically before you flush with fresh water yet again, attempting to flush any remaining bits out prior to drip drying, and reassembly!)

Thanks. I’ll get give that a try tomorrow.

 

[Decamicron Labs Verified Sponsor]

Agreed, chlorinated water will probably be your best bet if they are sponges since they're not calcified.

However, be very careful to not get any bleach into your system. 10-50ppb (not parts per million, parts per billion!) free chlorine can kill your fish. I've learnt this the hard way.

 

[EnterName]

However, be very careful to not get any bleach into your system. 10-50ppb (not parts per million, parts per billion!) free chlorine can kill your fish. I've learnt this the hard way.

Can you elaborate?

 

[Decamicron Labs Verified Sponsor]

Can you elaborate?

Very little bleach + water = fish gill damage

I bleach sterilize all aquariums in our facility in-between shipments if disease is found. I was previously using a spray bottle to save on bleach, but I suspect a few droplets got into my 50 gallon RODI storage and was later what might have killed off an entire shipment. It was undetectable by regular drinking water test kits. I now use a Hanna low range chlorine test kit to ensure this doesn't happen again.

To be honest I have no proof that it was due to the bleach, but this is quite well documented. You only need ~0.02mL of regular 8% bleach in 50 gallons to get to levels that cause very severe gill damage. Jump to pdf page 106 and 107:
https://www.afcd.gov.hk/english/quarantine/qua_vetlab/files/common/PCFinHK.pdf

It is the same reason why you must have catalytic carbon if you are reefing in a city that uses chloramines.

 

[EnterName]

Very little bleach + water = fish gill damage

I bleach sterilize all aquariums in our facility in-between shipments if disease is found. I was previously using a spray bottle to save on bleach, but I suspect a few droplets got into my 50 gallon RODI storage and was later what might have killed off an entire shipment. It was undetectable by regular drinking water test kits. I now use a Hanna low range chlorine test kit to ensure this doesn't happen again.

To be honest I have no proof that it was due to the bleach, but this is quite well documented. You only need ~0.02mL of regular 8% bleach in 50 gallons to get to levels that cause very severe gill damage. Jump to pdf page 106 and 107:
https://www.afcd.gov.hk/english/quarantine/qua_vetlab/files/common/PCFinHK.pdf

It is the same reason why you must have catalytic carbon if you are reefing in a city that uses chloramines.

Free chlorine can obviously damage gills, but small amounts of bleach in a tank don't have to be a problem. Your source describes permanent exposure at a measured concentration, but if you dose a theoretical amount of "0.1ppm free chlorine" into your tank once, a good part of it reacts with organics and trace elements before it reaches the fish.

"The recommended safe long-term exposure level is total chlorine < 0.003 ppm (ANZECC, 2000). Total chlorine levels ≥0.1-0.4 ppm have been associated with fish kills (Langdon, 1988) for freshwater species and ≥0.128-0.250 ppm for marine species (ANZECC, 2000)." - Page 193 (105/123 in your PDF)

0.02mL of 8% bleach in 50gal is only about 0.01ppm free chlorine, so below the levels that actually killed fish in the linked article, but above levels that would be considered safe during long-term exposure.

Bleach dosing is a thing... It's certainly weird and I wouldn't recommend it, but it's a thing people do. Bleach reacts quickly with organics and trace elements, so free chlorine drops fast. It does form some nasty compounds, but it won't nuke the tank when bleach is allowed to drop to safe levels again, so I think your shipment had other issues .

Many people here clean their filter socks with bleach and put them back in the sump unrinsed. A decently sized tank's chlorine demand should be high enough to handle it. So I don't think you accidentally killed your shipment with a few droplets and OP has no reason to worry about a tap-water-rinsed pipe

 

[Decamicron Labs Verified Sponsor]

Free chlorine can obviously damage gills, but small amounts of bleach in a tank don't have to be a problem. Your source describes permanent exposure at a measured concentration, but if you dose a theoretical amount of "0.1ppm free chlorine" into your tank once, a good part of it reacts with organics and trace elements before it reaches the fish.

"The recommended safe long-term exposure level is total chlorine < 0.003 ppm (ANZECC, 2000). Total chlorine levels ≥0.1-0.4 ppm have been associated with fish kills (Langdon, 1988) for freshwater species and ≥0.128-0.250 ppm for marine species (ANZECC, 2000)." - Page 193 (105/123 in your PDF)

0.02mL of 8% bleach in 50gal is only about 0.01ppm free chlorine, so below the levels that actually killed fish in the linked article, but above levels that would be considered safe during long-term exposure.

Bleach dosing is a thing... It's certainly weird and I wouldn't recommend it, but it's a thing people do. Bleach reacts quickly with organics and trace elements, so free chlorine drops fast. It does form some nasty compounds, but it won't nuke the tank when bleach is allowed to drop to safe levels again, so I think your shipment had other issues .

Many people here clean their filter socks with bleach and put them back in the sump unrinsed. A decently sized tank's chlorine demand should be high enough to handle it. So I don't think you accidentally killed your shipment with a few droplets and OP has no reason to worry about a tap-water-rinsed pipe

The 0.02mL figure is around the 10ppb=0.01ppm lower end of what that report had. I calculated that number for illustrative purposes and included it in my explanation for a reason. The report included two case studies, one freshwater and one saltwater.

"Case 2: chlorine 0.01 - 0.05 ppm and pH7.28 – 8.14." (Page 194, 106/203 of the PDF)

Your quote is from their introduction to pathophysiology of chlorine exposure, not what they actually reported for their case study. They do structure their report a bit oddly though, so you do need to read the entire section to understand what they mean. A total kill would also start at 0.2mL in 50 gallons, not a lot of liquid either.

The dosage is also not for permanent exposure. The EPA says 13ppb free chlorine in saltwater is the acute exposure (1 hour) limit. Their chronic exposure (4 days) threshold is 7ppb free chlorine in saltwater. https://www.epa.gov/wqc/national-recommended-water-quality-criteria-aquatic-life-criteria-table

Nevertheless, I do agree there are enough organics and random stuff in the water column to neutralize a good amount of free chlorine in a very short amount of time. I also disagree with dosing bleach since it produces too many very toxic compounds.

We also do use completely fresh tanks with just enough cycled media to do our conditioning of new imports, so free chlorine probably will last longer in our tanks, so my concerns may be overblown for the average reefer. Thinking about it more, if OP has enough stuff in the water column to support sponges, it probably is mostly a non issue.

I should note, chloramines are much more persistent than free chlorine. So if total chlorine is mostly chloramines, total chlorine concentration could remain higher for longer even in a dirty tank. Something to be aware about if doing large water changes in a city with chloramines.

 

[EnterName]

Free chlorine can obviously damage gills, but small amounts of bleach in a tank don't have to be a problem. Your source describes permanent exposure at a measured concentration, but if you dose a theoretical amount of "0.1ppm free chlorine" into your tank once, a good part of it reacts with organics and trace elements before it reaches the fish.

"The recommended safe long-term exposure level is total chlorine < 0.003 ppm (ANZECC, 2000). Total chlorine levels ≥0.1-0.4 ppm have been associated with fish kills (Langdon, 1988) for freshwater species and ≥0.128-0.250 ppm for marine species (ANZECC, 2000)." - Page 193 (105/123 in your PDF)

0.02mL of 8% bleach in 50gal is only about 0.01ppm free chlorine, so below the levels that actually killed fish in the linked article, but above levels that would be considered safe during long-term exposure.

Bleach dosing is a thing... It's certainly weird and I wouldn't recommend it, but it's a thing people do. Bleach reacts quickly with organics and trace elements, so free chlorine drops fast. It does form some nasty compounds, but it won't nuke the tank when bleach is allowed to drop to safe levels again, so I think your shipment had other issues .

Many people here clean their filter socks with bleach and put them back in the sump unrinsed. A decently sized tank's chlorine demand should be high enough to handle it. So I don't think you accidentally killed your shipment with a few droplets and OP has no reason to worry about a tap-water-rinsed pipe

The 0.02mL figure is around the 10ppb=0.01ppm lower end of what that report had. I calculated that number for illustrative purposes and included it in my explanation for a reason. The report included two case studies, one freshwater and one saltwater.

"Case 2: chlorine 0.01 - 0.05 ppm and pH7.28 – 8.14." (Page 194, 106/203 of the PDF)

Your quote is from their introduction to pathophysiology of chlorine exposure, not what they actually reported for their case study. They do structure their report a bit oddly though, so you do need to read the entire section to understand what they mean. A total kill would also start at 0.2mL in 50 gallons, not a lot of liquid either.

The dosage is also not for permanent exposure. The EPA says 13ppb free chlorine in saltwater is the acute exposure (1 hour) limit. Their chronic exposure (4 days) threshold is 7ppb free chlorine in saltwater. https://www.epa.gov/wqc/national-recommended-water-quality-criteria-aquatic-life-criteria-table

Nevertheless, I do agree there are enough organics and random stuff in the water column to neutralize a good amount of free chlorine in a very short amount of time. I also disagree with dosing bleach since it produces too many very toxic compounds.

We also do use completely fresh tanks with just enough cycled media to do our conditioning of new imports, so free chlorine probably will last longer in our tanks, so my concerns may be overblown for the average reefer. Thinking about it more, if OP has enough stuff in the water column to support sponges, it probably is mostly a non issue.

I should note, chloramines are much more persistent than free chlorine. So if total chlorine is mostly chloramines, total chlorine concentration could remain higher for longer even in a dirty tank. Something to be aware about if doing large water changes in a city with chloramines.

I see, thanks

Permanent exposure was definitely the wrong term here. Thanks for pointing that out. In my defense: it was very late (or early?) here in Germany when I went through your document however, I shouldn't have extrapolated from other sources, so that's my bad.

Do you know how they kept the exposure at the desired levels for 60min? Or did they describe how they introduced the right amount?

This person repeatedly used 2mL of 5% bleach in 500L which is a theoretical 0.19ppm:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/using-bleach-naclo-in-a-reef-tank.296459/post-3624825
That's just below the 0.2ppm threshold, but I really wonder if we are talking theoretical exposure or actually measured after dosing?

Anyway, we agree that it's a bad experiment to make in ones own tank and you don't want free chlorine nor the produced byproducts in your water. I just wanted to say that rinsing stuff in tap water is fine and that it's probably not your fault the delivered livestock died

 

[Subsea]

OP,
Expect this as a reoccurring event. It’s a testament to a mature diverse ecosystem.

A bottle brush soaked in peroxide should oxidize the biologicagl processes.

Most sponges consume bacteria; thus when you carbon dose, you grow bacteria that feed sponges.

 

[Subsea]

Has anyone ever heard of an NPS sponge growing in plumbing? I would have thought the flow would be too much. But, I recently have had an issue with my overflow levels being inconsistent. Now, I have a Red Sea G2 so I thought it was just the diaphragm valve acting up yet again. So, I took it apart as much as I could and cleaned it and the problem continued. So I took a flash light and looked down the overflow pipe and it looked like there was a white NPS sponge covering part of the down drain. Anyone ever heard of that? The flow going through there is pretty fast so like I said, I wouldn’t have thought it possible.

“Has anyone ever heard of an NPS sponge growing in plumbing?”

After 35 years in deepwater offshore drilling, I am never surprised with what grows in marine pipelines. As a mechanic on a drill ship I actually collected urchins & baby fish in our sea chest, which required periodic cleaning of barnacles & stuff causing biofowling, especially with check valves.

“was just the diaphragm valve acting up yet again“
@docscorals,
What does the diaphragm valve do in your Red Sea tank?

Also, as a subsea engineer in charge of underwater blowout preventers, I was privy to observing methane & sulfur environments from ocean vents in 5000’ of water using ROV for 24/7 monitoring.