NSA Build Caution

[WrasseyReefer]

Hi Everyone,

I went on a journey to build my own NSA. I found some posts about using baking soda with super glue to secure the rocks together. I had concerns about the baking soda possibly increasing my alk in my reef, but I didn't read anyone else having that experience, so I went for it. I spent around 20 hours chiseling rocks and building my own NSA using 2-part putty to fill in the spaces between rocks and super glue with baking soda to really secure everything together, and it worked great to build the structure. After placing the structure into my tank, my trident was measuring alkalinity at 1 dkh above my norm, which I keep pretty constant. I freaked out and did further testing and long story short, I determined the baking soda in the rocks was causing the alk increase. I removed the rocks and dosed acid buffer to decrease my alk back to normal, which did decrease my pH. It took several days to get my alk and pH back to normal. I did further tests with the rocks in containers of saltwater to see if I could somehow neutralize the baking soda with a ton of acid or break apart the rocks and chisel away the baking soda. Neither worked and the rocks are in storage and useless at this point. Bought brand new rock and starting from scratch with my NSA build. Huge disappointment, bummer, and waste of a ton of money in rock and expensive glue masters super glue. Please don't make the same mistake I made. Don't use baking soda. I'm now using sugar sized sand instead of baking soda. The reaction isn't as fast but it works to solidify the rocks together. I'm sure some people may have had success with the baking soda method, maybe they used less than me or have a larger alk demand than me so it was manageable for their reef. But for me it was a disaster.

 

[mike550]

@KisssMyWrasse that’s really interesting. Not sure if it matters now but I used a baking soda and RODI solution as a CA accelerant of about a tsp of baking soda and 1/4C water. So very little baking soda. The point of the baking soda solution is to offset the acidic qualities of the CA glue.

Did you apply dry baking soda?

Also — do you think the baking soda that’s causing your Alk to raise can be washed off?

 

[WrasseyReefer]

@KisssMyWrasse that’s really interesting. Not sure if it matters now but I used a baking soda and RODI solution as a CA accelerant of about a tsp of baking soda and 1/4C water. So very little baking soda. The point of the baking soda solution is to offset the acidic qualities of the CA glue.

Did you apply dry baking soda?

Also — do you think the baking soda that’s causing your Alk to raise can be washed off?

I used a massive amount of baking soda. I put two part putty in between the rock pieces and then poured dry baking soda all around the edges of the rock joints and then used ultra thin super glue to harden the baking soda. I don’t think the amount you used would have any negative affect. I probably used an entire box of baking soda. I tried rinsing it off, chiseling off solidified chunks, neutralizing with acid buffer. Nothing worked. I had initially thought when starting the project that the super glue would disable the baking soda from being released, but that obviously wasn’t the case. Huge mistake. I already removed the rocks and bought new rocks that I’m using to restart my NSA.

 

[WestMI-Reefer]

This was likely residual dust that increased alk not the baking soda that fused with glue. IMO you overreacted for only 1.0 increase. Buffers seem to lead most people to more problems. I think it would have dissipated in a couple of days and come back down to normal levels.
None the less, this is an interesting and useful observation. I’m guessing most people don’t notice this as their set ups are likely all new when using this technique.

 

[MoshJosh]

I used a massive amount of baking soda. I put two part putty in between the rock pieces and then poured dry baking soda all around the edges of the rock joints and then used ultra thin super glue to harden the baking soda. I don’t think the amount you used would have any negative affect. I probably used an entire box of baking soda. I tried rinsing it off, chiseling off solidified chunks, neutralizing with acid buffer. Nothing worked. I had initially thought when starting the project that the super glue would disable the baking soda from being released, but that obviously wasn’t the case. Huge mistake. I already removed the rocks and bought new rocks that I’m using to restart my NSA.

Why the epoxy and then glue + backing soda? I guess it doesn't really matter, but I would use glue THEN the 2 part.

I question whether or not it is truly the mixture, or just baking soda that was left in cracks or that never actually came in contact with the glue (but is making contact with the water, like it got encapsulated under glue but the water is able to reach it). I would wonder how reactive the baking soda is after it interacts with the superglue (after it's polymerized (is that the right word?))???

 

[19Mateo83]

I just finished building the aquascape for my 50 gallon. I used the BRS extra thick super glue to make the joints and dusted it with baking soda to set the CA glue. I rinsed everything the next day and like 99% of the baking soda rinsed off. It will be interesting to see how this method effects the alkalinity once I get everything up and running.

 

[Thumbster]

I just put my rocks together for my 40 breeder about a month ago using super glue and baking soda and did not experience what you are describing.

I used an air compressor to blow off the excess baking soda instead of rinsing it off though. I’m guessing rinsing it off would make it stick to the rocks and then come off when submerged in water?

I also used nowhere near an entire box of baking soda. Maybe a half dozen tablespoons and most of that ended up on the floor after blowing it off.

 

[mike550]

I used a massive amount of baking soda. I put two part putty in between the rock pieces and then poured dry baking soda all around the edges of the rock joints and then used ultra thin super glue to harden the baking soda. I don’t think the amount you used would have any negative affect. I probably used an entire box of baking soda. I tried rinsing it off, chiseling off solidified chunks, neutralizing with acid buffer. Nothing worked. I had initially thought when starting the project that the super glue would disable the baking soda from being released, but that obviously wasn’t the case. Huge mistake. I already removed the rocks and bought new rocks that I’m using to restart my NSA.

Wow. That’s a bummer. I didn’t know using baking soda like that was a method. I could see using sand/rock dust and saturating it with glue then using the baking soda solution to speed the cure. But not where baking soda adds to the structure. Good to know

 

[WrasseyReefer]

This was likely residual dust that increased alk not the baking soda that fused with glue. IMO you overreacted for only 1.0 increase. Buffers seem to lead most people to more problems. I think it would have dissipated in a couple of days and come back down to normal levels.
None the less, this is an interesting and useful observation. I’m guessing most people don’t notice this as their set ups are likely all new when using this technique.

It wasn’t just 1.0 dKH. I added acid buffer after it went up by 1.0 dKH within 30 min. But then it went up AGAIN. And AGAIN. And AGAIN. After adding many many many tbsps of acid buffer. This occurred over days. Repeatedly. I then placed the rocks in a bin with saltwater to experiment for days, weeks. And it continued going up and up and up despite acid buffer addition. I used a TON of baking soda on the rocks. This wasn’t a sprinkling. I don’t think this was an overreaction, as corals die from large alk increases.

 

[WrasseyReefer]

It wasn’t just 1.0 dKH. I added acid buffer after it went up by 1.0 dKH within 30 min. But then it went up AGAIN. And AGAIN. And AGAIN. After adding many many many tbsps of acid buffer. This occurred over days. Repeatedly. I then placed the rocks in a bin with saltwater to experiment for days, weeks. And it continued going up and up and up despite acid buffer addition. I used a TON of baking soda on the rocks. This wasn’t a sprinkling. I don’t think this was an overreaction, as corals die from large alk increases.

If I had left the rocks, it would’ve gone up to above 12 dkh. It would not have dissipated in a couple of days, as you say, as I tested if it would dissipate in bins with saltwater, and it didn’t. The alk continued to skyrocket. I think it’s fine to use dustings of baking soda, but I used a huge amount that I’m recommending others not do. I used it like a mortar, not an accelerant, so it was a lot.

 

[WrasseyReefer]

Why the epoxy and then glue + backing soda? I guess it doesn't really matter, but I would use glue THEN the 2 part.

I question whether or not it is truly the mixture, or just baking soda that was left in cracks or that never actually came in contact with the glue (but is making contact with the water, like it got encapsulated under glue but the water is able to reach it). I would wonder how reactive the baking soda is after it interacts with the superglue (after it's polymerized (is that the right word?))???

Spoke with BRS beforehand. They recommended to use the two-part, let it dry, then take apart rocks where putty hardens and add glue. They said glue then two part would take too long to dry and hold. I decided that would be too tedious and decided to use the putty to block space between the rock pieces and then used the baking soda and glue to fill in all the spaces and make it a solid hold, and the baking soda and glue hardens instantly, so it’s structurally sound immediately, rather than waiting for each brace to dry with just glue and putty (takes a while).

 

[WrasseyReefer]

I just finished building the aquascape for my 50 gallon. I used the BRS extra thick super glue to make the joints and dusted it with baking soda to set the CA glue. I rinsed everything the next day and like 99% of the baking soda rinsed off. It will be interesting to see how this method effects the alkalinity once I get everything up and running.

I don’t think a dusting of baking soda will have any affect on your alk. I used the baking soda and glue like a mortar (not an accelerant) to hold the rocks together, so I used a ton. Lesson learned.

 

[MoshJosh]

Spoke with BRS beforehand. They recommended to use the two-part, let it dry, then take apart rocks where putty hardens and add glue. They said glue then two part would take too long to dry and hold. I decided that would be too tedious and decided to use the putty to block space between the rock pieces and then used the baking soda and glue to fill in all the spaces and make it a solid hold.

I think it is fair to caution people agains using THIS method, however, in my experience this is not the typical method of using superglue and baking soda (aquascaping or otherwise).

I am not sure why they advised you to do that. It is counter to a lot of the video's I have seen (including BRS's own aquascaping videos). Also using the epoxy then "breaking" it seems like an extra step. . .

they talk about glue first then epoxy:




Also, I have not found a video of them even using baking soda, the only thing I have seen them use with superglue is there own instaset. Please link if there is a video cause I am curious.

Again I sand by that much of the baking soda likely never interacted with the superglue as I question it buffering capacity after that reaction has occurred.

 

[WrasseyReefer]

I think it is fair to caution people agains using THIS method, however, in my experience this is not the typical method of using superglue and baking soda (aquascaping or otherwise).

I am not sure why they advised you to do that. It is counter to a lot of the video's I have seen (including BRS's own aquascaping videos). Also using the epoxy then "breaking" it seems like an extra step. . .

they talk about glue first then epoxy:




Also, I have not found a video of them even using baking soda, the only thing I have seen them use with superglue is there own instaset. Please link if there is a video cause I am curious.

Again I sand by that much of the baking soda likely never interacted with the superglue as I question it buffering capacity after that reaction has occurred.

They didn’t recommend the baking soda. Just the putty and glue. I had found the baking soda method in a forum.

I agree that the large amount of baking soda I used likely didn’t fully react with the amount of glue I used and caused it to dissipate into the water.

 

[Thumbster]

Because I’m dumb….is baking soda safe to use to raise alkalinity? Mine is setting at 7 right now. If I can sprinkle some in every now and then that would be great.

On a side note….after building my aquascape I took the baking soda that I didn’t use (a few tablespoon full) and threw it in the yard. The next day there was a dead spot of grass there. I was not expecting that. “Baking soda” sounds quite harmless.

 

[MoshJosh]

They didn’t recommend the baking soda. Just the putty and glue. I had found the baking soda method in a forum.

I am not the aquasacping master, but I have glued many rocks together in my short time as a reefer. I superglue the rocks at the points of contact, let it dry, apply second larger coat of superglue over the first coat, again let it dry, then completely encase the joint in 2 part epoxy.

The epoxy is probably not needed for nanoscapes but wont hurt. My most recent scape I used the method above but skipped the epoxy and used thin superglue and sand (did this X2) for the last step (keep in mind this was a smaller scape).

 

[WrasseyReefer]

I am not the aquasacping master, but I have glued many rocks together in my short time as a reefer. I superglue the rocks at the points of contact, let it dry, apply second larger coat of superglue over the first coat, again let it dry, then completely encase the joint in 2 part epoxy.

The epoxy is probably not needed for nanoscapes but wont hurt. My most recent scape I used the method above but skipped the epoxy and used thin superglue and sand (did this X2) for the last step (keep in mind this was a smaller scape).

Yeah, now with my redo, I’m using putty in the middle of the rock pieces and then sand and thin super glue around the joint. Works fine. Doesn’t cure as fast as the baking soda and glue though. But what’s nice is the sand kind of blends with the rocks and blocks the gray putty from showing.

 

[WrasseyReefer]

Because I’m dumb….is baking soda safe to use to raise alkalinity? Mine is setting at 7 right now. If I can sprinkle some in every now and then that would be great.

On a side note….after building my aquascape I took the baking soda that I didn’t use (a few tablespoon full) and threw it in the yard. The next day there was a dead spot of grass there. I was not expecting that. “Baking soda” sounds quite harmless.

It is totally reef safe to use to increase alk.

 

[MoshJosh]

Yeah, now with my redo, I’m using putty in the middle of the rock pieces and then sand and thin super glue around the joint. Works fine. Doesn’t cure as fast as the baking soda and glue though. But what’s nice is the sand kind of blends with the rocks and blocks the gray putty from showing.

Yeah that is why I used the sand on the recent one. I prefer to use all Caribsea Liferock (the purple stuff haha) and the purple epoxy (not a perfect match but I don't mind) but the local store sells life rock at CRAZY prices. . . so was forced to use plebian regular rock this time. . .

 

[MoshJosh]

Yeah that is why I used the sand on the recent one. I prefer to use all Caribsea Liferock (the purple stuff haha) and the purple epoxy (not a perfect match but I don't mind) but the local store sells life rock at CRAZY prices. . . so was forced to use plebian regular rock this time. . .

Think it was $8.99 a pound!!!