Ok....when do you give up on going the "natural route"

[katthereefer]

Hi Fellow Reefers,

First official post here. I need some advice.

Background: purchased this 32 gallon bio-cube approx 3 months ago. It was established. Seller said it was "a couple of years old". No sand bed at time of purchase. I worked hard to keep rock alive during transport etc. I did add sand to the bottom for personal preference reasons. Started getting a (suspected) Cyano and red hair algae outbreak within 2 weeks.

What am I doing:

Lights - the seller was using 2 ai prime lights, which I found to be excessive, so I only set one back up. For this reason, I did turn the UV up from what he had them set at (by 15%). Coral seems to be adjusting just fine. I've turned it back down, but am nervous to cut back on lighting too much for this reason.

Dosing MB7, daily phyto, and added 4 rounds of pods. Running Cheato in the middle chamber. Initially dosed AB+ but read that was likely contributing to my phosphate issues, so I stopped that a few weeks ago. 10-20% water changes with physical removal of hair and algae every 7-10 days.

PH - 8.2
NH3 - trace
N02 - 0
N03 - 2 ppm
P04 - .35 ppm
dKH - 8.5
Ca - 420
Mg - 1410
PH - 8.1

78 Degrees
1.026 Salinity

The hair and slime seem to be getting better but it varies. Is this just the "ugly phase?" Am I doing something wrong? Or is it time to use a product? I'm getting frusterated.

 

[Spare time]

Reef energy likely has very little phosphate in it. You seem to have bryopsis and cyano. A very low nitrogen environment couple with high phosphates is perfect for them. I would us flux rx coupled with some gfo in a bag. Stop the MB7 and keep the fish well fed (at least twice daily).

 

[Spare time]

When asking about going the "natural route," ask youself what is "natural" about this tank? The food? No. The rock? No. The fish? Maybe, if they are all from the same area and live in nearby niches. The coral? Very unlikely you would buy only corals that exist near each other at the same parts of the same reef. The light? No. The element concentration? No. The flow of water? No. The fish behavior? Almost certainly abnormal. The bacteria? No. The microfauna? No. This is a hobby of making artificial environments that are meant to keep things in a tiny box of water alive. The only thing "natural" is that everything in the tank originates from matter on earth. Approach an issue in a tank not by how "natural" the method is but by what provides the best quality of life for what I want to keep in here. Nature does not provide the ideal quality of life for any living organism.

 

[HankstankXXL750]

I have used chemi-Clean for cyano in my fish tanks, I have anemones and Green Star Polyps but no other corals but the product says reef safe. I have had no I’ll effects, and had to treat both tanks twice as it returned eventually after the first treatment.

I tried siphoning and brushing it for a considerable amount of time like over a month of weekly water changes. So I went with the product. And I would recommend it.

That being said, you probably do need to reduce your phosphates. I dose phosphate-E from brightwell. As you have a nano I assume you don’t really have room for a gfo reactor so this might be an easier solution.

I dose with an auto doser as I have multiple tanks, but you can do it manually easy enough.

 

[Hermie]

the bryopsis, from my understanding, is going to require active measures to eradicate

 

[Reef Alchemy]

Do you have any snails? I recommend Astrea, Mexican Ceriths, Trochus, and Mexican Turbo snails. If you have Bryopsis, you need to deal with that. Reef Flux (fluconazole) works good for Bryopsis, but it can kill shrimp like Skunk and Peppermint. It killed mine when I wasn't warned about it, but fishes, corals, and snails were unharmed. Nothing eats Bryopsis (besides maybe Sea Lettuce Nudibranchs) and it becomes a plague. You have to have herbivores in you tank before the algae gets big. Once it gets big and coarse the herbivores do not like it, but they may reluctantly eat it. The herbivores will eat hair algae when it is young and just fuzz on the rocks.

For cyano prevention, nutrient management is key.

 

[Reef Alchemy]

If the Bryopsis is only on that one rock, you should just remove the rock from the tank.

 

[katthereefer]

When asking about going the "natural route," ask youself what is "natural" about this tank? The food? No. The rock? No. The fish? Maybe, if they are all from the same area and live in nearby niches. The coral? Very unlikely you would buy only corals that exist near each other at the same parts of the same reef. The light? No. The element concentration? No. The flow of water? No. The fish behavior? Almost certainly abnormal. The bacteria? No. The microfauna? No. This is a hobby of making artificial environments that are meant to keep things in a tiny box of water alive. The only thing "natural" is that everything in the tank originates from matter on earth. Approach an issue in a tank not by how "natural" the method is but by what provides the best quality of life for what I want to keep in here. Nature does not provide the ideal quality of life for any living organism.

I get what you're saying. I'm a diver. Perhaps I used the wrong words. What I was trying to say was that my approach to reefing (and I'm only 18 months in so I'm new), is to try to stay away from chemicals and address the cause whenever possible.

 

[katthereefer]

If the Bryopsis is only on that one rock, you should just remove the rock from the tank.

It's on most of the rock, unfortunately. I'm now wondering if this was a problem with the tank before I bought it.

 

[katthereefer]

Do you have any snails? I recommend Astrea, Mexican Ceriths, Trochus, and Mexican Turbo snails. If you have Bryopsis, you need to deal with that. Reef Flux (fluconazole) works good for Bryopsis, but it can kill shrimp like Skunk and Peppermint. It killed mine when I wasn't warned about it, but fishes, corals, and snails were unharmed. Nothing eats Bryopsis (besides maybe Sea Lettuce Nudibranchs) and it becomes a plague. You have to have herbivores in you tank before the algae gets big. Once it gets big and coarse the herbivores do not like it, but they may reluctantly eat it. The herbivores will eat hair algae when it is young and just fuzz on the rocks.

For cyano prevention, nutrient management is key.

I have a fire shrimp in this tank. I could look into putting him into my other tank I suppose...

 

[DarkReefer]

Chemiclean seems to work well for cyano.
You could also run some rowaphos in a media reactor (or mesh bag if you can't afford a reactor). That'll focus on getting your phosphates back down.
Can't help on the bryopsis stuff though.

 

[HankstankXXL750]

I get what you're saying. I'm a diver. Perhaps I used the wrong words. What I was trying to say was that my approach to reefing (and I'm only 18 months in so I'm new), is to try to stay away from chemicals and address the cause whenever possible.

I made that statement to @Randy Holmes-Farley when trying to get my nutrients under control. Wasn’t looking for the “quick fix in a bottle”. However in that instance I was referring to No-Pox and Randy explained that carbon dosing is “natural” in that it preformed the same function as occurs in the ocean. That being said, I have tried to avoid “chemicals”. But sometimes using a product can either solve the issue, or buy time for nature to take its course. Like using Chemi-Clean for cyano. Many say keep cleaning and it will eventually subside as the tank matures, but if it is going to choke out corals etc. it is better IMO to take action.

 

[katthereefer]

I wanted to post an update on my tank.

I ended up treating in with ReefFlux.

I am on day 21. Byropsis is completely gone. I still have the Cyano (which was to be expected) and seem to have some Dinos developing.

I plan to test the water and do a change today. I did order some Chemclean with the ReefFlux so I have it on hand, though I'm a bit hesitant to use it. I also have Vibrant here from the plethora of products I was given with the tank purchase. Penny for your thoughts.

Also have some more Pods and Phyto arriving in the next day or two. Chaeto is doing fine. Shrimp did fine. Had some snail loss.

 

[Hot2na]

Never is my answer to the original question...I use NSW , Jaubert plenum, and an algae scrubber run RDP ... natural, algae free and thriving.

 

[brandon429]

You need to do a rip clean

You won't want to now because it's work vs a doser/ no work

But each succession of invasion you kill without export sinks dead cells into the strata even further, and dinos coming will drive you to a choice: take it down or rip clean because you're forced to. you're stacking meds on top of dead cells on top of dead plants on top of daily systemic waste, you're driving your reef to eutrophic conditions which is old tank syndrome. no doser fixes this, dosers don't export

If you do it now you save headache on the inevitable, study:

Algae Identification

Any opinions on what type of algae this is growing on my rocks and sand bed?

www.reef2reef.com

It's the most important skill a nano reefer can have in the toolbox

 

[brandon429]

everything about the process is covered above

how to clean rocks

how to clean sand

how to hold animals safely while working, there's six clear jobs in there with outcomes. by all means, attempt not doing one and see if you can get the same results without/but when you see the pressure mounting, just rip clean it and you will have a total shiny reef, we show plainly above.

 

[katthereefer]

everything about the process is covered above

how to clean rocks

how to clean sand

how to hold animals safely while working, there's six clear jobs in there with outcomes. by all means, attempt not doing one and see if you can get the same results without/but when you see the pressure mounting, just rip clean it and you will have a total shiny reef, we show plainly above.

Couple of questions:

1) This sand is about 3 months old. When I bought the tank (used) it was 2-3 years old, with the byropsis on the rock, but was bare-bottom. I added "live" sand to it. Am I not essentially just going through the ugly stage right now and wouldn't I be going backwards by doing such a clean?

2) 2/3 of the coral on my rock is GSP, Zoa's, and mushrooms. How do I clean the rock without losing it all? Complete transparency..... I'm about to have a double fusion in my back and don't have time for a massive project. I can handle to maintain for the next 4-6 months. This is feeling super frustrating and overwhelming. I was totally feeling like I was making progress. :-/

 

[Tamberav]

Just a note on chemi clean... the product itself seems to not be so much of an issue as that there are many many types of cyano and some are toxic... so when you kill it off... it can kill other inhabitants when it dies. It is important to remove as much cyano as possible first.

Personally I never bother with chemi clean. It seems sometimes people get dino after using it... remove one bad thing... tank still unbalanced so another tanks it's place... not always but sometimes.

 

[Lavey29]

I wanted to post an update on my tank.

I ended up treating in with ReefFlux.

I am on day 21. Byropsis is completely gone. I still have the Cyano (which was to be expected) and seem to have some Dinos developing.

I plan to test the water and do a change today. I did order some Chemclean with the ReefFlux so I have it on hand, though I'm a bit hesitant to use it. I also have Vibrant here from the plethora of products I was given with the tank purchase. Penny for your thoughts.

Also have some more Pods and Phyto arriving in the next day or two. Chaeto is doing fine. Shrimp did fine. Had some snail loss.

So even though you migrated over an existing tank there was die off of bacteria coupled with new sand in place that has no bacteria and after set up, you cranked the light, albeit only one now for the coral and your ugly phases started which is perfectly normal. These ugly phases will be with you in various forms for the first year. Rather then sticking to a natural approach to remedy the tank and correct the root source of the problem you chose the harsh chemical approach with reeflux. So your GHA is gone but now you have opened the door for even worse algae if in fact it is dinos. You need a microscope for proper ID. Patience is the name of the game in this hobby. Algae problems do not develop or go away overnight. Post some current white light pics and your complete parameters. You want nitrates at 10 and phosphate at .05 to .1.

Cut lights to 6 hours with blue and uv only. Weekly water changes with siphon removal. Increase flow to cyano area. Get a diverse cleaner crew. Dose phytoplankton daily. Dose good bacteria like PNS probio weekly. Stay the course. Certain dinos can be beat with UV sterilizer to so maybe a cheap external one can help but run it at night when they are in the water column.

Stuff like chemiclean or reeflux may get you some results but you kill off your biome to so your biodiversity is gone opening the door to problems. You need to rebuild this and have patience.

 

[katthereefer]

So even though you migrated over an existing tank there was die off of bacteria coupled with new sand in place that has no bacteria and after set up, you cranked the light, albeit only one now for the coral and your ugly phases started which is perfectly normal. These ugly phases will be with you in various forms for the first year. Rather then sticking to a natural approach to remedy the tank and correct the root source of the problem you chose the harsh chemical approach with reeflux. So your GHA is gone but now you have opened the door for even worse algae if in fact it is dinos. You need a microscope for proper ID. Patience is the name of the game in this hobby. Algae problems do not develop or go away overnight. Post some current white light pics and your complete parameters. You want nitrates at 10 and phosphate at .05 to .1.

Cut lights to 6 hours with blue and uv only. Weekly water changes with siphon removal. Increase flow to cyano area. Get a diverse cleaner crew. Dose phytoplankton daily. Dose good bacteria like PNS probio weekly. Stay the course. Certain dinos can be beat with UV sterilizer to so maybe a cheap external one can help but run it at night when they are in the water column.

Stuff like chemiclean or reeflux may get you some results but you kill off your biome to so your biodiversity is gone opening the door to problems. You need to rebuild this and have patience.

I have a microscope and will check and post parameters and pics in a day or two! I'm having a minor surgery tomorrow, so things were quite rushed today, but wanted to get the water change done before I couldn't for a week since it's been 21 days.

My understanding was that there was no other way to deal with byropsis other than the Fluconazole, Magnesium (I wasn't comfortable attempting this technique), or hydrogen peroxide (the way my rock is stacked this would have been an insane project.)

I don't know if you want all the way back to my OP, but I did add bacteria, a ****-ton if pods for weeks, have a refugium with Chaeto, dose Phyto, tried MB7, turned down lights, lots of water changes with manual removal - everything you just suggested is what I was doing for months before the byropsis started going crazy. Both the byropsis and the Cyano were there from day 1. They came with the tank. I'm more than happy to abandon the Chemclean idea and go back to everything else. Pods and Phyto will be here in 2 days Hadn't thought of putting more bacteria in again, but that's a good idea.

I'm honestly not one of those impatient folks - I can be quite a lazy reefer, and right now I have big back and neck problems so I try to stretch out tank work as much as possible. I just got really overwhelmed with all of the byropsis that was taking me 2 hours every few days to clean out and didn't know what else to do. Sounds like I followed the wrong advice. Seems like there is a LOT of if in the topic and that's a huge bummer.

I have a Trachy in there and a few other corals I'm nervous about cutting the lights back to 6 hours. The previous guy was running two Ai Primes and I pulled it back to one because I felt it was excessive, so they are already adjusting to that. If you think that's not a big deal I can try it, but they look so great right now I am hesitant. It's the only dang thing going right in there!