First off this is no way a bash thread, i ordered some coral recently some of the shipment made it and some didn't. I lost 2 zoa frags, the seller understood but said he didn't want to ship them. He lives about 3 hours away from my destination. But can meet in NYC, but i will not be able to go there for some time...Is asking for a partial refund out of the question or what should i do thanks....
Okay coral died in tank due to shipping...please read my thread
- Thread starter kharn101
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In that case, it's not out of the question. You shouldn't have to drive for them just as you can't force the seller to ship them. I think it's okay to ask. At least you're not demanding it.
Let me ask you, how was it packaged? was there a heat pack? styrofoam lined box? plenty of newspaper for insulation?..the winter is a crap shoot to ship any corals, especially when it's really cold, you have to be dealing with somebody who absolutely knows how to ship in these conditions. I always check the temp of the water the corals arrive in, if it's warm to the touch then just floating the bag to get up to temp should be sufficent, but if the water is cold or practically freezing cold, you have to drip acclimate it slowly up to temp!! If you don't slowly bring it up to temp accordingly then you might as well kiss that frag goodbye. A lot of times the coral arrives healthy looking but stressed beyond belief and if the new owner does not bring it up to temp correctly 99% of the time it's done for, it slimes like crazy and then the tissue slowly peels off. I would be nice about it and ask him for a refund or if he would be willing to ship again if you cover the shipping cost..
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AquaWorldPSC
Well-Known Member
I would just take the refund or drive up there and get them. I mean if you really wanted him to ship it you can ask him to ship it at your own risk.
If that's the case I would see what he is willing to do, a refund is defintely not out of the question but with that being said the buyer has to inherit some responsibility as well, it can't all be put on the seller unless he was completely negligent,the Caveat Emptor in this case is both parties knew there was a risk involved in shipping in the cold weather but in a lot of cases people are quick to blame the seller everytime something goes wrong. I'm not saying your doing this I just have seen it a lot of times, wether a buyer inadvertently kills a coral or the seller packs it like crap, I believe the cost should be shared and not put entirely on one person, it goes both ways UNLESS it is obvious somebody was negligent
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H@rry
Troll
Did you have the package held at the local FedEx facililty for pickup or did it ride on a cold truck for 3 - 4 hours? Was the heat pack warm when you first opened the box (not 15 minutes later)?
H@rry
Troll
About Heat Packs
Many people have a false impression about the use of heat packs when shipping coral frags. Heat packs consist of iron powder, charcoal, salt, vermiculite, and water. They generate heat via the oxidation (rusting) process. This can only occur in the presence of oxygen. I ship frags in a cardboard box with all the edges taped shut. Inside the cardboard is a plastic trash bag to prevent any leakage that may get the box soggy and Styrofoam pieces cut to fit inside the box for insulation. There is no way oxygen from outside the box can enter once it is sealed. Once the heat pack consumes the oxygen that was in the box when it was sealed it cools off. That’s the simple truth.
Heat packs are available ranging from the 6 hour hand warmers to some that will last up to 30 hours. I think the ratio of ingredients is how this is achieved. The hand warmers get hotter than the long lasting ones. This is absolutely not what we want when shipping frags. These things can get over 110 degrees. I always use the longest lasting ones I can find. I conducted tests on two boxes containing bags of water packed like I pack them to ship. One box had one of the commercially available heat packs sold for shipping livestock and the other had a long lasting heat pack from WalMart. Each box had a digital thermometer inserted through the side so I could monitor the temperature. I kept a log of the temps for 24 hours. I moved them from inside to outside and then back in. Within an hour of being packed both started cooling off to ambient temperature. There was no difference.
Heat packs would be ideal for shipping something like reptiles where there would be air exchange between inside and outside. The best protection for coral is a well insulated box that prevents air exchange with the outside and having the box held at FedEx for pickup.
Sometimes the people I ship frags to tell me that “the heat pack was still warmâ€. I ask them if they checked it as soon as they opened the box. Invariably they opened the box and laid the lid aside, picked up the bags and admired their new frags, and began the acclimation procedure. Some time later they start to clean up the shipping supplies and notice the heat pack. They feel it and “it’s still warm!†Nope, it’s “warm again†after being exposed to oxygen.
Many people have a false impression about the use of heat packs when shipping coral frags. Heat packs consist of iron powder, charcoal, salt, vermiculite, and water. They generate heat via the oxidation (rusting) process. This can only occur in the presence of oxygen. I ship frags in a cardboard box with all the edges taped shut. Inside the cardboard is a plastic trash bag to prevent any leakage that may get the box soggy and Styrofoam pieces cut to fit inside the box for insulation. There is no way oxygen from outside the box can enter once it is sealed. Once the heat pack consumes the oxygen that was in the box when it was sealed it cools off. That’s the simple truth.
Heat packs are available ranging from the 6 hour hand warmers to some that will last up to 30 hours. I think the ratio of ingredients is how this is achieved. The hand warmers get hotter than the long lasting ones. This is absolutely not what we want when shipping frags. These things can get over 110 degrees. I always use the longest lasting ones I can find. I conducted tests on two boxes containing bags of water packed like I pack them to ship. One box had one of the commercially available heat packs sold for shipping livestock and the other had a long lasting heat pack from WalMart. Each box had a digital thermometer inserted through the side so I could monitor the temperature. I kept a log of the temps for 24 hours. I moved them from inside to outside and then back in. Within an hour of being packed both started cooling off to ambient temperature. There was no difference.
Heat packs would be ideal for shipping something like reptiles where there would be air exchange between inside and outside. The best protection for coral is a well insulated box that prevents air exchange with the outside and having the box held at FedEx for pickup.
Sometimes the people I ship frags to tell me that “the heat pack was still warmâ€. I ask them if they checked it as soon as they opened the box. Invariably they opened the box and laid the lid aside, picked up the bags and admired their new frags, and began the acclimation procedure. Some time later they start to clean up the shipping supplies and notice the heat pack. They feel it and “it’s still warm!†Nope, it’s “warm again†after being exposed to oxygen.
mak060
Reluctant Zoa Collector
Hey H@rry, that is useful information. Would it then make more sense to vent, just a little, rather than seal the entire box? Also, if the heat pack gets wet, does it still work? The answers might be relevant towards the OP, although perhaps more to help define future shipping standards rather than past ones. kharn101, sorry for the loss. The spectrum of answers you've received seems to reveal an unfortunate, hobby-wide lack of a standard in shipping policy. Lately, I've just taken the hits if the shipper took the usual, reasonable measures (doesn't mean you should though).
H@rry
Troll
I have heard a couple of people say that they leave a small opening for air exchange. I have not tried that because I feel that would compromise the insulation factor of the Styrofoam box. When I put the heat pack in it is warm and gives some benefit on the front end of the trip. In my opinion, the greatest causes of coral death (assuming the box was packed and insulated properly) is caused by the 3 to 5 hour ride in the local delivery truck during freezing weather. It seems that while the corals arrive looking OK that in the next 1 or 2 days they lose all their tissue. I've also found that Montiporas seem to be particularity susceptible to this. For this reason, I strongly insist that the pack be held at the local FedEx facility for pickup.
mak060
Reluctant Zoa Collector
Thanks Harry. Heat pack for up front, hold at facility for the back end.
Kharn101, were the zoas by any chance metallic reds like AOGs, DAs, or Armageddons? I just have a small bias about these being more susceptible to shipping shock, with AOGs dying while with other zoas in the same shipment survived a-okay. In one instance, I know they left the facility alive, because I picked them up personally (6-hour drive).
Meanwhile, I think FaviaFreak's advice is the most rational. Sorry for being so chatty on this one. Just a sensitive topic for me too.
Kharn101, were the zoas by any chance metallic reds like AOGs, DAs, or Armageddons? I just have a small bias about these being more susceptible to shipping shock, with AOGs dying while with other zoas in the same shipment survived a-okay. In one instance, I know they left the facility alive, because I picked them up personally (6-hour drive).
Meanwhile, I think FaviaFreak's advice is the most rational. Sorry for being so chatty on this one. Just a sensitive topic for me too.
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mfinn
likes zoanthids
kharn101, good luck and I hope you reach a happy medium between yourself and the seller.
FaviaFreak said it very well.
One more thing on the shipping. I have received many styroboxes with heat packs in them. Most of the time the heat packs have died because of the lack of O2.
A couple of boxes came in at about 50 degrees in which everything has died. I do test the temp when I get all my stuff.
A couple have come to me with a water temp in the 70's. Those boxes had small air holes in them. Not alot but a couple. Usually in the lid directly behind the heat pack that was taped to the lid.
FaviaFreak said it very well.
One more thing on the shipping. I have received many styroboxes with heat packs in them. Most of the time the heat packs have died because of the lack of O2.
A couple of boxes came in at about 50 degrees in which everything has died. I do test the temp when I get all my stuff.
A couple have come to me with a water temp in the 70's. Those boxes had small air holes in them. Not alot but a couple. Usually in the lid directly behind the heat pack that was taped to the lid.
H@rry
Troll
Can you describe the holes? How many? What size? Through the cardboard and Styrofoam? I'm always very interested in anything I can do to insure that frags arrive in good condition.
Thanx a lot.
PS. I'm sorry to hijack your thread krarn101.
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Dace
Well-Known Member
this is unbelievable, I'm the one that sold harry these corals, it's incredible the things that you do for people they don't appreciate it. First off, I had a bunch of people asking me tell sell that frag pack to them that were local and since i new you from MR i held it for you even though you know how the payment went. I told you that since you live in Trenton NJ (which is only 1 hour from Manhattan) that it would be best if we just met in the city so i can just give you the corals but you still wanted shipping. I packed them as well as i could. why did you not take pictures of the packing, also through in freebie. It's totally my fault because i never like shipping and i just should of said no. I should of just stated if it's not a delivery before 10:30 i won't grantee the corals. so that also my fault. It's disappointing to think that i have to get up this morning see this thread like this knowing that i a no point said that i would not replace the corals. I did not even ask you for a picture of the DOA coral did i. I just trusted your word and said i would replace them. So i think it's fair if you want the corals right away that we could meet half way.
Poughkeepsie is further then Trenton from Manhattan.. I sure that theres someday that you could be going to Manhattan that i could of met you. This really ticked me off as to i go above and beyond to make anyone that i sell to happy about what i sell them. Now that were on this topic. I guess I'll throw myself in the fire for another stupid decision i made. I sold another frag pack to a person who lives in Puerto Rico that paid express mail for the package which takes two days delivery and expressed that i was very concern about the shipping but he assured me that he does it all the time and that the corals should be fine. This is where i messed up. (I don't Know if i was clear to him that i would do it but would not grantee the corals) But to me if your in this hobby and have bought corals from anyone I'm sure you would assume that there is no grantee on it, i guess i will go through all the Pm's to see if i did state this. I'm just so ticked right now that I'm just throwing myself in the fire for making bad decision..
My Point: I will replace your corals BUT These are THE TERMS:
You Want them shipped Now,you PAY 55.00 10:30 Guarantee SHIPPING. You want to picked them up from Manhattan, I'll meet you there. You want to wait until it gets warmer, then i will ship them when i feel it's warm enough that i will not take another lost. It's disappointing that you couldn't just call me and we could of just worked out a pickup date. As for the shipment to PR, That Guy has been great. he has kept me up to date with the shipment and only one coral looks like it may have issue's.
One thing is,
I except fault since I'm a pretty new shipper for not being so clear to the terms. That's why i will replace the frags no questions asked but for future sales let me make one thing clear which is what i should of stated from the beginning.
I Will Not Guarantee any shipment that is not next day 10:30 delivery
Poughkeepsie is further then Trenton from Manhattan.. I sure that theres someday that you could be going to Manhattan that i could of met you. This really ticked me off as to i go above and beyond to make anyone that i sell to happy about what i sell them. Now that were on this topic. I guess I'll throw myself in the fire for another stupid decision i made. I sold another frag pack to a person who lives in Puerto Rico that paid express mail for the package which takes two days delivery and expressed that i was very concern about the shipping but he assured me that he does it all the time and that the corals should be fine. This is where i messed up. (I don't Know if i was clear to him that i would do it but would not grantee the corals) But to me if your in this hobby and have bought corals from anyone I'm sure you would assume that there is no grantee on it, i guess i will go through all the Pm's to see if i did state this. I'm just so ticked right now that I'm just throwing myself in the fire for making bad decision..
My Point: I will replace your corals BUT These are THE TERMS:
You Want them shipped Now,you PAY 55.00 10:30 Guarantee SHIPPING. You want to picked them up from Manhattan, I'll meet you there. You want to wait until it gets warmer, then i will ship them when i feel it's warm enough that i will not take another lost. It's disappointing that you couldn't just call me and we could of just worked out a pickup date. As for the shipment to PR, That Guy has been great. he has kept me up to date with the shipment and only one coral looks like it may have issue's.
One thing is,
I except fault since I'm a pretty new shipper for not being so clear to the terms. That's why i will replace the frags no questions asked but for future sales let me make one thing clear which is what i should of stated from the beginning.
I Will Not Guarantee any shipment that is not next day 10:30 delivery
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