Outdoor Above Ground Pipe

[DocPorkChop]

I am trying to set up an ATO and AWC from one room to another in my house, however it will require about 10ft of the piping to be above ground and outside of the house.

Is there any insulated pipe or anyway to prevent the water lines from freezing in the winter?

 

[The_Paradox]

If that’s your only option I would set up a secondary reservoir inside and a shut off valve to drain the line when not in use during the winter. Unless you want to heat it, no amount of insulation will prevent freezing if it’s cold enough long enough.

 

[DocPorkChop]

If instead of just running the ATO/AWC do you think it would be more beneficial to have the sump pipes run outside?

I figure the sump will be constantly moving water so as long as they are well insulted there shouldn‘t be much temperature change, right?

 

[BeanAnimal]

There is no realistic way to accomplish this easily without insulation and a heat wire or a pipe within a pipe and the outer one with forced warm air etc.

Why does this need to go outside and back in?

 

[DocPorkChop]

The room I am planning to set up my tank in was an old concrete porch that got converted into a room. I have part of my unfinished basement that I want to use as a fish room/water area that is caddy corner the room. Since the room where the tank is going is an old porch there is nothing underneath it to allow me to get into the basement.

If I went through the wall of the room where the tank is going and ran along the side of the house for about 8 feet it would be in the unfinished basement

 

[ScottJ]

How cold does it get and for how long does it stay that cold? Also, will it be in the sun, or like a north wall. Do you get feet of snow that sticks around for months, or a dusting that's gone the next day?

 

[DocPorkChop]

How cold does it get and for how long does it stay that cold? Also, will it be in the sun, or like a north wall. Do you get feet of snow that sticks around for months, or a dusting that's gone the next day?

Im in Northern Virginia so we do get snow but its usually inches not feet and doesn‘t stick on the ground for weeks.

Im thinking if I built a box around the pipes and over stuffed it with insulation the temperature loss wouldn’t be that great. Especially if im running 1300-1500 gph from the tank and sump through the pipes

 

[ScottJ]

I would think you would be ok with constantly running water. Yup, an insulated box over 8 feet, I bet you wont see more than a couple degree temperature loss.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Insulation is not magic - if you put a styrofoam box 4 feet thick in a freezer with a temperature probe in it, the inside of the box will eventually reach the same temperature as the freezer. The same with your house and no heat.

The insulation offsets the temperature swings. But without HEAT from the inside, the box will eventually reach the outside temperature. So yes, moving 77F water through the pipe will likely prevent it from freezing as long as the flow is high enough and constant, but there will be significant heat loss that has to be made up by heaters.

I am too lazy to do the math, but on a cold week or two, this will be significant.

Is the basement lower than the porch or the same level?

 

[ScottJ]

Insulation is not magic - if you put a styrofoam box 4 feet thick in a freezer with a temperature probe in it, the inside of the box will eventually reach the same temperature as the freezer. The same with your house and no heat.

The insulation offsets the temperature swings. But without HEAT from the inside, the box will eventually reach the outside temperature. So yes, moving 77F water through the pipe will likely prevent it from freezing as long as the flow is high enough and constant, but there will be significant heat loss that has to be made up by heaters.

I am too lazy to do the math, but on a cold week or two, this will be significant.

Is the basement lower than the porch or the same level?

But you are heating the inside if the of the box. With 77F running water.

 

[The_Paradox]

But you are heating the inside if the of the box. With 77F running water.

I agree and in NOVA I doubt the insulated pipes would even get below 28 degrees. Having said that, the issue would be if the pump ever failed or was left off on accident. In my opinion it would come down to risk tolerance. Assuming good insulation I’m willing to bet it could go 24-48 hours before freezing especially against the house. Is there any circumstance where you can see flow being off for that long? Pump failure, winter storm, Godzilla attack?

 

[BeanAnimal]

But you are heating the inside if the of the box. With 77F running water.

Please read all of what I posted again, that was acknowledged. Heat loss (to keep the box warm) will be significant.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I agree and in NOVA I doubt the insulated pipes would even get below 28 degrees. Having said that, the issue would be if the pump ever failed or was left off on accident. In my opinion it would come down to risk tolerance. Assuming good insulation I’m willing to bet it could go 24-48 hours before freezing especially against the house. Is there any circumstance where you can see flow being off for that long? Pump failure, winter storm, Godzilla attack?

I don’t disagree about the freezing, but the heat loss will be significant.

 

[Paul B]

Yes, very easy. We used to use these on all outside pipes here in New York on construction projects.

Just buy black, foam pipe insulation and put this heat tape inside. Plug it in and when it gets cold it will heat the pipe enough so it doesn't freeze. It has a thermostat so it doesn't get to hot or work when it isn't very cold.

You can do the entire thing in half an hour for $25.00

 

[Lebowski_]

Please read all of what I posted again, that was acknowledged. Heat loss (to keep the box warm) will be significant.

I agree with you. Up here in Canada, people will use heating wires but even this solution is meant to be only occasional and usually indoors in cellars/unfinished basements/attics etc. They are also not the safest options in the world. If you pay a little more you can get ones that have a sensor and only turn on when required.

Can't speak for VA or what kind of temps to expect. Having heated water flow through it will definitely help but I just don't love it long term. My mind goes to winter power outages, deep freeze weeks, etc. Maybe I am struggling to relate to VA compared to up here in Canada. I guess the good news is that if it's not pressurized like a water line in a house, when the power goes out, it will also empty the pipe and reduce the chance of something more catastrophic happening.