Overflow Drain to fish room, down then up?

[DCR]

That is a large tank. I would probably reduce the turnover to 1500-2000 gph, but that is still going to be a problem going through the crawl space. Are you really set on a 48" depth because if it was less (36") you could get your sump under the tank and maintaining a 48" high tank is going to be difficult because you cannot reach the bottom with your hands without going into the tank. I personally would never go more than 30" and I prefer to limit the height to 24". If you are set on that depth, I would put the sump behind or to the side of the tank in the next room.

If you are really set on the crawl space idea, I would probably have the secondary and emergency discharge into a top vented 4" vertical standpipe and have the horizontal run slope downwards reaching a low point just before it turns up. I would provide cleanouts or breakout spools for cleaning the pipe run of debris. It is risky but if you make the pipe large enough to backflow any entrapped air it should work. I would probably consider a high- level sensor in the tank to shut down the return pump

 

[VelocityTech]

My last setup was very close to this. About 20ft horizontal. I went with the herbie overflow design. Two pipes.
I used a 1 or 1.5" with a gate valve at full siphon, and a 2" for the overflow pipe. It worked flawless for years. And I pushed TON of water through it. Used a 100RTL pump. Never touched it after countless power outages and shutdowns.

Herbie will give you a silent design. Make sure you keep the run on a slant.

Good luck!!

 

[coreytrv]

That is a large tank. I would probably reduce the turnover to 1500-2000 gph, but that is still going to be a problem going through the crawl space. Are you really set on a 48" depth because if it was less (36") you could get your sump under the tank and maintaining a 48" high tank is going to be difficult because you cannot reach the bottom with your hands without going into the tank. I personally would never go more than 30" and I prefer to limit the height to 24". If you are set on that depth, I would put the sump behind or to the side of the tank in the next room.

If you are really set on the crawl space idea, I would probably have the secondary and emergency discharge into a top vented 4" vertical standpipe and have the horizontal run slope downwards reaching a low point just before it turns up. I would provide cleanouts or breakout spools for cleaning the pipe run of debris. It is risky but if you make the pipe large enough to backflow any entrapped air it should work. I would probably consider a high- level sensor in the tank to shut down the return pump

Great suggestions, thank you.

I am set on the 48" height. From a design perspective, a 48" tall tank that sits just a couple feet off the ground is like a wall of water, feels like you're peering into the sea...and allows for a lot of room to aquascape.

Yes, I'll need to get in it to build it, and will need tongs for moving things around, that part will be the price paid for the "wow factor".

All the above said, and based on feedback from the forum, it does seem that the sump needs to be placed near floor level in the garage, to avoid and opportunities for settling + for emergency or non-siphon drains to work.

Here's a rendering, how do you scale that back! :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

 

[VelocityTech]

Great suggestions, thank you.

I am set on the 48" height. From a design perspective, a 48" tall tank that sits just a couple feet off the ground is like a wall of water, feels like you're peering into the sea...and allows for a lot of room to aquascape.

Yes, I'll need to get in it to build it, and will need tongs for moving things around, that part will be the price paid for the "wow factor".

All the above said, and based on feedback from the forum, it does seem that the sump needs to be placed near floor level in the garage, to avoid and opportunities for settling + for emergency or non-siphon drains to work.

Here's a rendering, how do you scale that back! :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

That's going to be amazing! I would get water inside, and practice emergencies.. You can build lots of redundancy in. 48" is alot of head in a 2". I have had sumps directly next to displays, and never had any issues.

What type of plumbing did you have in mind? Drains, returns, pumps, etc? What size sump? If the last sump is pumped into the tank without any water being removed, will it even overflow? There's a good chance it will not.

 

[coreytrv]

Just saw your build thread, very nicely done! Like the setup, and the aquascaping!

You can build lots of redundancy in. 48" is alot of head in a 2".

Actually I think it's the opposite. I'm not an expert, but I do work with static lift, TDH, and hydraulics in my work. It's my understanding that larger diameter pipe actually will decrease head pressure relative to a smaller pipe. This isn't due to vertical lift, but rather due to the friction of the water rubbing against the walls of the pipe.

Thus a larger pipe means more freely moving water in the middle. (the effect is more pronounced in higher flow)

Consider this:

@ 3600 GPH 1-1/2" pipe has head pressure loss of 20 ft per 100'
@ 3600 GPH 2" pipe has head pressure loss of 5.92 ft per 100'
@ 3600 GPH of 2-1/2" pipe is only 2.49 ft per 100'

Remember, you need to add all the equivalent length of every fitting to get a total number. That number, plus your vertical head pressure = total head.

In my case, I plan to run the return lines into the ceiling and back down to the tank. Thus my head calcs are as follows:

2" Pipe
9' vertical to attic
(14) sweep 90's = 14 x 2.8 = 39.2
(1) T = 3.5
(1) Gate = 1.4
45' pipe
39.2+3.5+1.4+45 = 89.1
3600 gph 100' = 5.8
5.8 x .89 = 5.162 head pressure loss

5.162 + 9 = 14.162 head

Thus, I need a pump that can product 3600 GPH @ 14.162 head to meet my spec.

What type of plumbing did you have in mind? Drains, returns, pumps, etc? What size sump? If the last sump is pumped into the tank without any water being removed, will it even overflow? There's a good chance it will not.

Based on calculations for drainage and return piping above, and in this thread. To meet 3600 GPH I need:
2-1/2" full siphon drain lines
2" pressure return lines

Tank will flow to common sump, so overflow height of both tanks needs to be considered in sizing sump.
Total gallonage per inch of display volume = 23 gallons per inch
Overflow teeth will be 1-1/2" deep = 1.5 x 23 = 34.5 gallons
Water in pipe Volume = 9.5 gallons

I need a minimum overflow headroom in the sump of 44 gallons.

Sump gallons per inch of HT is 9 gallons.

Thus sump needs 5" of headroom to accommodate overflow in the event of a pump failure / power outage.

 

[Freenow54]

Have a tank going in the living room. Want to run the overflow lines from Display Tank to the Garage.

Attached is a scale diagram of the plumbing.

1 story house, drain will go from the display tank, into the crawlspace, then horizontally about 25' to the garage.
The overflow drain will need to go back up a few feet to the sump.

Any issues with drain going down, then back up? Relative distance between the overflow level and sump is about a 42"drop:

I assume Bean Animal is the best setup here.

Can gravity work here, or is a siphon setup needed, if siphon, I wonder if the 'up' portion of the line will have trouble purging air, of if there's enough head pressure to push through?

After looking again sorry I cannot really understand the diagram but why no pump?

 

[coreytrv]

After looking again sorry I cannot really understand the diagram but why no pump?

The diagram shows drainage only, typically you don't use a pump to move water to the sump, otherwise you end up trying to balance pumping IN and pumping OUT which never balances long term.

 

[Freenow54]

Thanks get it now. I dont understand how a double trapped line will function. If it does then if circulation pump fails will it not drain the main tank?. Mine drains through a pipe that goes through the bottom ( ie bulkhead fitting and terminates near the top of the tank therefore anti shiphon. Is this not possible?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

This is exactly the crux of the issue- some kind of filter, or cleanout that could be used to periodically remove buildup.

Perhaps can use that cleanout, and then open that to do a blowout periodically, ie: put a high pressure pump on the overflow inlet every so often, and scour the lines with pressure.

I haven't read past the post I'm replying to so this may have already been suggested, but adding a union before the "up elbow" would allow easy clean outs.

 

[coreytrv]

I haven't read past the post I'm replying to so this may have already been suggested, but adding a union before the "up elbow" would allow easy clean outs.

Design has been changed, seems like too many opportunities for entrapment of air / detritus. Sump going to sit on garage floor, and drain line won't go back up. Might be horizontal for a bit though, and have some sweep 90's around corners.

Like the idea of installing a cleanout tee to blow a'hoy.