Palytoxin

[exnisstech]

Heck if nothing else comes out of this thread I've expanded my vocabulary some more :face-with-hand-over-mouth: . "Munchausen" I think I've learned more words here than when I went to school. Thanks @BeanAnimal I think I've learned more words from you than anyone. Now if I could just remember them and their definition so I could use them in a conversation :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

 

[BeanAnimal]

I keep 3 palythoa colonies in my tank including a 10” round grandis colony amd
I am not concerned in the least. I work in my tank bare handed, and give my hands a quick rinse when I’m done

Grandis

Palys 2

Palys 3

I lifted paly colony 3 (above ^ ) a few weeks ago, removed it from tank. Redid rock work and put it back. Zero issues

Some people have driven millions of miles not wearing a seatbelt and never been injured and have no worries whatsoever. You can't conclude that cars are safe from that fact.

Your particular specimens may not actually have the toxin at all. You can't know that unless you do have a reaction or you have them sent off for testing.

My issue here (and in all of these threads) is people using anecdote to assuage valid concern and fear. You and others that keep saying "don't worry, it will be okay" are basically telling people who are playing Russian Roulette to not worry, because you did it and lived.

Palytoxin is one of the deadliest most concentrated (if not outright) neurotoxins on the planet. Not all specimens have it. The problem is that we don't know which ones actually do or don't and as much as we want to trust visible identification to guide us, we can't.

So therefore, the advice is to treat them all as if they were extremely deadly and take appropriate precautions. I have them in my tank, and try as I might, can't get rid of them. My "precaution" would bit be PPE. It would be to not have them. That ship sailed.

So - they very least we can do, given that they are a big part of this hobby, is responsibly make people aware, if not over emphasize the dangers. Anything less is irresponsible.

If you or anybody disagrees, so be it. I will stand pat in this, given facts at hand.

 

[VintageReefer]

I don't disagree, with that, but the point is that it is aeresolized..

Ok I’ll meet you in the middle since I do see your point and you don’t disagree with me

I will acknowledge, evaporation is a form of aeresolization, but, this method would not cause injury as it is very very little over a very long period of time, and you have tons of clean air to disperse the tiny bit of evap from a splash

The aerosol risk is from a sudden large amount of palytoxin becoming airborne at once, from a mass die off, from an event such as baking, boiling, or cooking, that directly puts a large amount in the air at once through steam or vaporization process

 

[VintageReefer]

Some people have driven millions of miles not wearing a seatbelt and never been injured and have no worries whatsoever. You can't conclude that cars are safe from that fact.

Your particular specimens may not actually have the toxin at all. You can't know that unless you do have a reaction or you have them sent off for testing.

My issue here (and in all of these threads) is people using anecdote to assuage valid concern and fear. You and others that keep saying "don't worry, it will be okay" are basically telling people who are playing Russian Roulette to not worry, because you did it and lived.

Palytoxin is one of the deadliest most concentrated (if not outright) neurotoxins on the planet. Not all specimens have it. The problem is that we don't know which ones actually do or don't and as much as we want to trust visible identification to guide us, we can't.

So therefore, the advice is to treat them all as if they were extremely deadly and take appropriate precautions. I have them in my tank, and try as I might, can't get rid of them. My "precaution" would bit be PPE. It would be to not have them. That ship sailed.

So - they very least we can do, given that they are a big part of this hobby, is responsibly make people aware, if not over emphasize the dangers. Anything less is irresponsible.

If you or anybody disagrees, so be it. I will stand pat in this, given facts at hand.

Palythoa grandis is a known carrier of palytoxin and Hawaiians would dip spear tips in this particular species to increase likelihood of death or illness on contact or non lethal contact prior to tribal wars

 

[VintageReefer]

And, I will agree, handle all with care. Chances are if you handle it with care and take basic precautions you will be fine. They don’t make your water or air toxic on their own. You generally need to cut them, or cook them, to create the risk

 

[Reefering1]

Palythoa grandis is a known carrier of palytoxin and Hawaiians would dip spear tips in this particular species to increase likelihood of death or illness on contact or non lethal contact prior to tribal wars

Not really helping your point...

 

[VintageReefer]

Not really helping your point...

My point was never about poking them with an object and then cutting yourself with that object

 

[BeanAnimal]

Palythoa grandis is a known carrier of palytoxin and Hawaiians would dip spear tips in this particular species to increase likelihood of death or illness on contact or non lethal contact prior to tribal wars

your particular colony may or may not contain some level of the toxin. Again, you can’t tell unless you have an incident or sending off for testing. Full Stop.

 

[Reefering1]

Hard to argue that. I'm, personally, not very concerned. But one takes on the responsibility(morally, at the least) to error on the side of caution when offering advice to the unsuspecting..

 

[Reefering1]

Some people have driven millions of miles not wearing a seatbelt and never been injured and have no worries whatsoever. You can't conclude that cars are safe from that fact.

Your particular specimens may not actually have the toxin at all. You can't know that unless you do have a reaction or you have them sent off for testing.

My issue here (and in all of these threads) is people using anecdote to assuage valid concern and fear. You and others that keep saying "don't worry, it will be okay" are basically telling people who are playing Russian Roulette to not worry, because you did it and lived.

Palytoxin is one of the deadliest most concentrated (if not outright) neurotoxins on the planet. Not all specimens have it. The problem is that we don't know which ones actually do or don't and as much as we want to trust visible identification to guide us, we can't.

So therefore, the advice is to treat them all as if they were extremely deadly and take appropriate precautions. I have them in my tank, and try as I might, can't get rid of them. My "precaution" would bit be PPE. It would be to not have them. That ship sailed.

So - they very least we can do, given that they are a big part of this hobby, is responsibly make people aware, if not over emphasize the dangers. Anything less is irresponsible.

If you or anybody disagrees, so be it. I will stand pat in this, given facts at hand.

Edited

Hard to argue that. I'm, personally, not very concerned. But one takes on the responsibility(morally, at the least) to error on the side of caution when offering advice to the unsuspecting..

 

[VintageReefer]

your particular colony may or may not contain some level of the toxin. Again, you can’t tell unless you have an incident or sending off for testing. Full Stop.

I think it would be irresponsible to assume it doesn’t

 

[BeanAnimal]

And, I will agree, handle all with care. Chances are if you handle it with care and take basic precautions you will be fine. They don’t make your water or air toxic on their own. You generally need to cut them, or cook them, to create the risk

Again, when I disturb the specimens in my tank, I end up with a headache, hives and nausea, the severity increasing as exposure increases.

If you want to chalk this up to my imagination or some other chemical, so be it.

The simple fact remains. Palytoxin is present in some samples and it is one of the most dangerous toxins known to man. We do t have the luxury of knowing which samples without testing. Therefore treat them all the same.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I think it would be irresponsible to assume it doesn’t

is that not my exact point :oops:

You appear to be undermining your own position with admitting that.

Just be safe my friend.

 

[Bohemian Waxwing]

Oh yay. Another one of these threads. Don’t boil palys. Don’t lick your fingers or rub your eyes after working in the tank until you wash your hands.

/endthread

No one made you read it or reply

Seems like a worthy discussion for newer, less confident hobbyists.

 

[VintageReefer]

is that not my exact point :oops:

You appear to be undermining your own position with admitting that.

Just be safe my friend.

I reread the entire thread and maybe my point is unclear from joking with my buddy reefering1

Paly should be treated with care and proper safety means. Assume it has a toxin inside it. And do your best to keep the toxin inside the coral and not your body.

No there is not risk of catching it in from a reef mat in everyday situations. I am of course assuming someone isn’t slicing them off with an xacto knife underwater and then licking their reefmat a hour later

They typically are only aeresolized to harmful levels from acts of stupidity, which may not seem stupid at the time to an an informed individual. Don’t cook them. Don’t boil them. Don’t do anything to vaporize them.

Yes splashing and evaporation create fine mist, which is aerosolization, but this is generally localized and the risk is much lower.

My overall stance is just treat them with respect, be aware of your body and what you come in contact with after handling.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Just admit you were hacked and that was not you speaking earlier. Much easier. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

 

[VintageReefer]

Just admit you were hacked and that was not you speaking earlier. Much easier. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

No. I’ll admit it. I got caught up on liquid being converted to steam, and I wasn’t considering things like fine mists from splashing.

Yes there are multiple ways for a liquid to become airborne. I admit again I wasn’t considering all of them.

Still, I never said they were harmless, or that they shouldn’t be treated with care. And I do feel they should be handled with respect and awareness.

Your ReefMat wont get you sick. Don’t lick it, bake it, or scrape/snort it.

 

[formallydehyde]

I suggest doing some actual research instead of assuming that many cases are some kind of misplaced panic.

How many actual cases of mild to moderate sickness are NOT reported to a doctor or others and mistaken as something else? How many severe cases are not recognized by the attending Dr. because the source is not known and not tested for?

I started an entire new folder in my citation manager to gather every palytoxin-related publication I've read over the past couple years to respond then 45 minutes later started to question what I was doing with my life so I am just leaving this one alone.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I started an entire new folder in my citation manager to gather every palytoxin-related publication I've read over the past couple years then 45 minutes later started to question what I was doing with my life so I am just leaving this one alone.

I have collected a good number of them as well and am sympathetic to the sentiment.

 

[braaap]

No one made you read it or reply

Seems like a worthy discussion for newer, less confident hobbyists.

It isn't a worthy discussion. It is a waste of bandwidth. This horse is dead. Stop beating it.