Paradox of NO/PO supplementation? Need explanation

[drtechno]

Hi all

So I have been wondering about Nitrate and Phosphate levels and SPS, which require some amounts to be present, optimally. My understanding is very clearly not correct, so I need some R2R education.

How does one achieve measurable nitrates and phosphates, because my observation is that Nitrate and Phosphate seem to always be zero in my new tank with small frags.

I feed heavy, Nitrate and Phosphates rise, immediately get consumed by algae, so the readings become zero. I remove the algae and now feed less often, with again Nitrates and Phosphates reading zero due to immediate consumption by smaller amounts of algae. Algae is omnipresent in all tanks to some degree, so is always ready to go to consume these nutrients.

Does it not follow that any detectable Nitrates or Phosphates immediately are consumed by algae, given SPS levels of lighting? And therefore, it is difficult to raise those levels at all ? I don't understand how it is possible to have sustained levels of these two things without immediate consumption.

I must the thinking about this incorrectly, so help a fella out here

 

[Uncle99]

You sound like your filtration is too efficient and mopping up all the good stuff.

Zero is a hard to get number so I have some concern in the test results.

If actually zero, then you need to make filtration less effective.

You should come to a point whereas what goes in, comes out in the same amount, thus, a stable nutrient availability.

 

[Lavey29]

New tanks are inherently unstable the first year. I had to double dose neophos and neonitro for multiple months before I got measurable numbers.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Hi all

So I have been wondering about Nitrate and Phosphate levels and SPS, which require some amounts to be present, optimally. My understanding is very clearly not correct, so I need some R2R education.

How does one achieve measurable nitrates and phosphates, because my observation is that Nitrate and Phosphate seem to always be zero in my new tank with small frags.

I feed heavy, Nitrate and Phosphates rise, immediately get consumed by algae, so the readings become zero. I remove the algae and now feed less often, with again Nitrates and Phosphates reading zero due to immediate consumption by smaller amounts of algae. Algae is omnipresent in all tanks to some degree, so is always ready to go to consume these nutrients.

Does it not follow that any detectable Nitrates or Phosphates immediately are consumed by algae, given SPS levels of lighting? And therefore, it is difficult to raise those levels at all ? I don't understand how it is possible to have sustained levels of these two things without immediate consumption.

I must the thinking about this incorrectly, so help a fella out here

Algae will always be eating the N & P, so you need snails to eat the Algae and release it again.

 

[drtechno]

Algae will always be eating the N & P, so you need snails to eat the Algae and release it again.

Ya. I have snails but as they consume and release it again it just forms more fuel for the algae, once again bringing it closer to zero, no?

You sound like your filtration is too efficient and mopping up all the good stuff.

Zero is a hard to get number so I have some concern in the test results.

If actually zero, then you need to make filtration less effective.

You should come to a point whereas what goes in, comes out in the same amount, thus, a stable nutrient availability.

But that’s my confusion. As I lower the filtration efficiency, any increases in Nitrate and Phosphate are immediately consumed by the algae resulting in a reading of zero, no? Anything above zero will always trend towards zero due to algae consumption?

Or am I giving the algae too much credit and they can’t possibly consume every last trace of nitrate and phosphate.

 

[thedon986]

Ya. I have snails but as they consume and release it again it just forms more fuel for the algae, once again bringing it closer to zero, no?


But that’s my confusion. As I lower the filtration efficiency, any increases in Nitrate and Phosphate are immediately consumed by the algae resulting in a reading of zero, no? Anything above zero will always trend towards zero due to algae consumption?

Or am I giving the algae too much credit and they can’t possibly consume every last trace of nitrate and phosphate.

Did you start with dry sand? I’ve found that dry sand absorbs phosphates like crazy. How much algae do you actually have? Is it that bad? Pics always help.

 

[Uncle99]

Ya. I have snails but as they consume and release it again it just forms more fuel for the algae, once again bringing it closer to zero, no?


But that’s my confusion. As I lower the filtration efficiency, any increases in Nitrate and Phosphate are immediately consumed by the algae resulting in a reading of zero, no? Anything above zero will always trend towards zero due to algae consumption?

Or am I giving the algae too much credit and they can’t possibly consume every last trace of nitrate and phosphate.

There would always be a point where nutrients would trend upwards as filtration is decreased.

Are you confident in your test kits?

Absolute zero is possible, but is there any chance your test is faulty?

Most have the opposite, nitrates running high and then we start to employ other filtration regimes to lower them, especially in newer systems.

 

[drtechno]

There would always be a point where nutrients would trend upwards as filtration is decreased.

Are you confident in your test kits?

Absolute zero is possible, but is there any chance your test is faulty?

Most have the opposite, nitrates running high and then we start to employ other filtration regimes to lower them, especially in newer systems.

Ya great questions. So apparently I’m using the RedSea regular Nitrate test kit (oopsy) which is probably fine, but obviously doesn't read low level too well. So I am ordering the RedSea Pro Nitrate test kit. That will give me a better sense of what is going on with Nitrates. My phosphates are actually somewhere around 0.01 recently, but have been as high as 0.06.

In terms of algae, its not bad at all right now. It was absolutely nuts about 2 months ago, but I dosed Microbacter Clean and Razer and it literally dissolved in one week. Now I just have small amounts of growth. In my refugium, I have tons or green hair algae that I just harvest from there, instead of chaeto which I can't grow (likely due to very low nutrients).

My concern is more for my quarantine coral tank, which is fed with AWC water from the display. That has small amounts of algae growing, buts its a pain because it gets on my plug bases and things and blows around my QT corals. Would love to have that tank totally clean, but thats not going to happen with the light going into it and the nutrient levels.

So I guess the take home point is that I really should be using the RS PRO Nitrate test kit to see what levels of Nitrate I really have, since they are likely low but not zero.

 

[Uncle99]

Ya great questions. So apparently I’m using the RedSea regular Nitrate test kit (oopsy) which is probably fine, but obviously doesn't read low level too well. So I am ordering the RedSea Pro Nitrate test kit. That will give me a better sense of what is going on with Nitrates. My phosphates are actually somewhere around 0.01 recently, but have been as high as 0.06.

In terms of algae, its not bad at all right now. It was absolutely nuts about 2 months ago, but I dosed Microbacter Clean and Razer and it literally dissolved in one week. Now I just have small amounts of growth. In my refugium, I have tons or green hair algae that I just harvest from there, instead of chaeto which I can't grow (likely due to very low nutrients).

My concern is more for my quarantine coral tank, which is fed with AWC water from the display. That has small amounts of algae growing, buts its a pain because it gets on my plug bases and things and blows around my QT corals. Would love to have that tank totally clean, but thats not going to happen with the light going into it and the nutrient levels.

So I guess the take home point is that I really should be using the RS PRO Nitrate test kit to see what levels of Nitrate I really have, since they are likely low but not zero.

Nitrate should be easy to see, phosphate is hard to see.
The only thing that worked for me was Hanna HR Nitrate and UL Phosphorus checker.

 

[drtechno]

Nitrate should be easy to see, phosphate is hard to see.
The only thing that worked for me was Hanna HR Nitrate and UL Phosphorus checker.

Ya, I am using the Hanna UL Phosphorus checker and it has been great. Just the nitrate test kit needs to be the right one for the levels that I am trying to read.

Shrug. Maybe I need to feed more and not worry about algae unless it gets out of control?

 

[Garf]

Ya, I am using the Hanna UL Phosphorus checker and it has been great. Just the nitrate test kit needs to be the right one for the levels that I am trying to read.

Shrug. Maybe I need to feed more and not worry about algae unless it gets out of control?

Is there a reason you went down the algaecide route (I’m guessing that’s what Bightwells razor is)? I’m assuming you know that you can turn your skimmer down.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Is there a reason you went down the algaecide route (I’m guessing that’s what Bightwells razor is)? I’m assuming you know that you can turn your skimmer down.

It's bacterial, I believe the same as continuum clean equation m.
It is not designed to treat algae, but cleaner rocks can certainly help.

ed: Oops I misspoke, confusing it with MB Clean. Apparently it's some type of polymer, but not an algaecide.

 

[drtechno]

Is there a reason you went down the algaecide route (I’m guessing that’s what Bightwells razor is)? I’m assuming you know that you can turn your skimmer down.

It’s not algaecide (at least not per label). So I didn’t go that route. Algae in my refugium is just fine.
If I turned the skimmer down, that would result in even more nutrients in the water, which would result in even more algae growth, no?

 

[Garf]

It’s not algaecide (at least not per label). So I didn’t go that route. Algae in my refugium is just fine.
If I turned the skimmer down, that would result in even more nutrients in the water, which would result in even more algae growth, no?

Algae grows in super low nutrients also (ie, the sea). Algae control in tanks can be achieved by limiting light (preferably by coral shading), attachment inhibition (if something is already on the rock work, such as bacterial films or micro algae growth, coralline algae, once again coral), or herbivory (algae munchers). If your rock is gathering crap in crevices you can use a turkey blaster to remove this extra fuel, just blow it into the water.

 

[Dan_P]

Hi all

So I have been wondering about Nitrate and Phosphate levels and SPS, which require some amounts to be present, optimally. My understanding is very clearly not correct, so I need some R2R education.

How does one achieve measurable nitrates and phosphates, because my observation is that Nitrate and Phosphate seem to always be zero in my new tank with small frags.

I feed heavy, Nitrate and Phosphates rise, immediately get consumed by algae, so the readings become zero. I remove the algae and now feed less often, with again Nitrates and Phosphates reading zero due to immediate consumption by smaller amounts of algae. Algae is omnipresent in all tanks to some degree, so is always ready to go to consume these nutrients.

Does it not follow that any detectable Nitrates or Phosphates immediately are consumed by algae, given SPS levels of lighting? And therefore, it is difficult to raise those levels at all ? I don't understand how it is possible to have sustained levels of these two things without immediate consumption.

I must the thinking about this incorrectly, so help a fella out here

If you want more nitrate and phosphate in the water, add sodium nitrate and a phosphate salt. Add as much or as little as you need.

If you are going the overfeeding route to generate nitrate and phosphate, it takes a little of math to figure out how much more to feed or like most aquarists, you keep increasing the daily amount of food until the nitrate and phosphate reach the level you want.

 

[drtechno]

Ok great. I will keep testing and varying my feeding (at least start trying that way) to see where I land with nutrient levels. Sounds like I don't need to worry about the algae issue at the moment (I have plenty of tangs, snails, urchins) unless it gets out of hand again.

It's just irritating that it grows in the coral QT as well, where there are far fewer herbivores.

 

[Uncle99]

Pest algaes persist until such a time as the guys who keep your tank clean are in sufficient quantities.

Good guy algae and bacteria are slow to populate but you can help the process by keeping all 8 major parameters in the normal levels and, more importantly, they hold stable day in day out.

Keep feedings normal and in the same size as well as 10% water change every week until rocks and sand go clean.

I put an emphasis on making my water chemistry rock solid.

It’s somewhat of a leap of faith as the stuff we need, we mostly can’t see.

Redirect snails efforts constantly by placing them in affected areas, otherwise they wander.

Most nitrate tests work well as the colour change is dramatic.
Light pink indicates 2-5, pink 6-10,darker pinky reds higher.

Great choice IMM on testing phosphorus.

Good luck. Stay the course.

 

[Dan_P]

Ok great. I will keep testing and varying my feeding (at least start trying that way) to see where I land with nutrient levels. Sounds like I don't need to worry about the algae issue at the moment (I have plenty of tangs, snails, urchins) unless it gets out of hand again.

It's just irritating that it grows in the coral QT as well, where there are far fewer herbivores.

Good luck!