!!!!PHOSPHATE THAT IS EVIL:FEAR THAT IS REAL!!!?

Discussion in 'Battlecorals' started by Battlecorals, Jun 10, 2016.

  1. LadAShark

    LadAShark Active Member

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    Thing is, I might eventually throw in a mushroom or two eventually. Or rather, some type of not too fragile coral. I guess I'll have to think about it then ;P
    Having worked with biochemistry so long I honestly found it surprising that people are so eager to remove phosphates in tanks. I had just assumed that the only reason they did so was because they didn't want algae. Otherwise I can't see why people wouldn't want phosphate in the water, it's food for a lot of things.
     
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  2. Wilsoni

    Wilsoni Well-Known Member

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    Love this write up! :)
     
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  3. Bob Escher

    Bob Escher Welcome to Saltwatef R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

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    And other than cheato what would you grow? And why I believe that less is better meaning why have different algae in the sump over having just one? You also run the chance of causing more issues having more than one kind would you not
     
  4. LadAShark

    LadAShark Active Member

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    A variety of algae provides natural competition, preventing any one algae from taking over, while at the same time providing the benefits of varied filtration. Well that and I'm planning to grow edible algaes like red nori ;P
    Nom nom
     
  5. Tankr75

    Tankr75 Active Member

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    Great write up. I am new to SW fishtanks and I will admit I have always been told that phos was the reason for all my troubles. But it's also good to know that your rock doesn't have to be perfectly clear of algae. I kinda like the look of it looks more natural like you would pick up out of the ocean.
     
  6. Bob Escher

    Bob Escher Welcome to Saltwatef R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

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    Yum yum then, my worry is that they might go " what's the term? Asexual) and my tank will be more of a mess than before
     
  7. echopiece

    echopiece Active Member

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    Nice write up. I feel we can get too wrapped up in chasing numbers. That being said, I've been more focused on following the redfield ratio here lately ;)
     
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  8. LadAShark

    LadAShark Active Member

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    I'm still confused by that term. Shouldn't it be sexual?
    Yeah I am slightly worried about that too, but I think I'd just set it up before my sand/bead filter so even if they do, I can deal with it.
    Plus, if they do escape into my main tank, they will only end up as a snack for the abalone there ;P
     
  9. Fercho

    Fercho Member

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    Hi,
    As a new reefer (roughly 4 yrs into the hobby) i've had my good share of success and failures in reef keeping. I read and read to soak my brain with lots of info. I do know for a fact that phosphates and nitrates is probably the second, if not the first, most talked about topic after water parameters and stability. As i read, im constantly in the search for the "key secret" on how to achieve that vibrant coral coloration for sps.

    To be honest, i have never tested for phosphates and nitrate levels. In fact. I have no idea where those levels are right now. Strangely, i have learned to somehow gauge those phosphate and nitrate levels by touch if you will. By closely observing and reading my coral's behavior.

    My only question to all successful sps masters out there:
    What would you say is the "key secret" for achieving amazing coral coloration?

    Here's a bit of info about my 90 gal reef.

    Mostly sps, all healthy. Great polip extn and decent sign of growth.

    Cal 430
    Dkh 7.7 (this stable for the past several months)
    Mg 1335
    Salinity 1.025

    15 gal water change with red sea blue bucket byweekly.
    Run gfo all the time and replace every two weeks
    Also run ROX carbon every once in a long while.

    I do not feed the corals or use any type of aminos.
    Last time i tried docing one cap full of acropower (i have acros) every weekend and a purple monti rtn halfway and a purple stylopora didnt like it and got real upset for about a month and a half after the 4th cap of docing.
    My guess is the one cap every weekend was too much and stoped using it. And im scared of using it again.

    Any direction on achieving amazing coral coloration will be greatly appreciated.
     
  10. Macdaddynick1

    Macdaddynick1 Valuable Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Just my opinion for the sake of being Devil's advocate.

    Here are some other variables to consider , the light, flow intensity and a health of the coral itself (mainly does it have the boring algae ) . (And this is just my experience/observation ) .
    Are the corals in the tank healthy to begin with?
    Do they get enough light ?
    Is the flow adequate ?
    Basically are the other parameters on point, are there any swings?
    I like to compare the high levels of phosphates to ick in a way. If your fish is healthy and not stressed out by any other factors while you have ick in the system, they will shrug it off with no problem.
    Now if one day you start stressing the same fish to the point where you start seeing bunch of dots on them, then ick really becomes a problem and further hinders the recovery of the stressed fish. If the system does not have ick and the same fish is stressed out in a similar manner, after you remove the stressor it will eventually recover to its normal state.

    Similarly , if someone keeps acros, that are super healthy, and receive enough light, super solid parameters, large water volume enough food, having high phosphates probably won't affect them . Now in reality most tanks are smaller and sometimes we get a calcium swing or alkalinity or salinity or we tinker with the light , or the light is too low , bam there are phosphates causing acros to brown out , stunt growth, fueling the boring algae, you name it. System with lower phosphates .03-.04 on the other hand is somewhat more forgiving since a stressed coral doesnt have phosphates to further limit its calcification/growth and the recovery process.

    My system is lower light and believe me getting my phosphates above .1 stunts all the growth , 0 PE, STN, you name it . After adding gfo everything comes back to normal, visible daily growth, no STN.

    I know of a reef tank (LFS tank) that has .22 phosphates with great success, the tank is also infested with flatworms and red bugs. I think that the tank is 400 gal and around 25 years old, the tank is old school so it has 6 MH and 6 t8 bulbs . If I'm not wrong I think they told me that it's about 1000 par at the surface (I might be wrong) . Their colonies grow like crazy and look amazing too, one problem though a lot of their acroporas have boring algae in them. They seem to outcompete it with no problem in their tank, here's a problem though not everyone has MH T5s or even (radions*) to provide the corals with ton of light. Some people have mixed reefs and higher light tends to bleach lps and shrooms so that becomes a limiting factor also. Moreover, if you have LEDs often one side of the acro gets the light and the shaded side just Browns out or loses the color. When you move a coral from an old school tank like that into a tank with lower light and high phosphates acros don't tend to grow as fast but the boring algae doesn't care and eventually outcompetes the coral.


    So finally
    I think there is more than just 1 variable,
    Just like the higher alkalinity causes the problem in a low nutrient systems . I wonder if there is a similar relationship between the light intensity and phosphates or the flow and the calcification rate. Etc .

    PS: don't mind my terrible grammar it's 4:30 am no time to fix it . :)
     
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  11. Battlecorals

    Battlecorals Aquaculturist R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor

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    I absolutely agree with that point. Its hard to let the bulk of problems in reef tanks fall on one poor element. In fact that was ultimately the general thrust of the write up. And clearly from what you've experienced, elevated phosphate has served as a detriment if anything. I really appreciate all the input and comments!
     
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  12. Diesel

    Diesel String Stalker. R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Photo of the Month Award Reef Spotlight Award

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    Adam always wakes up the reefer community.
    Few years back we needed all kinds of reactors to keep Po4 and No3 low.... lower...... lowest!
    Now days we dose No3 and for that matter if you want to do it right fish poop back in the tank when your corals starting to look like ghost sticks and yet having some kind of PE that IMO only tells you that they screaming for food in the form of Po4 and No3.
    Turning your skimmer off for a few hours will work to but who wants to turn a Deltec off.......... those are music makers in the sump.
     
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  13. Battlecorals

    Battlecorals Aquaculturist R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor

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    LOL if by music makers you mean beautifully silent, then yes sir! Thanks for the post Ben! But yeah I'm not really into shutting the skimmer down personally. Especially internals where the water will just sit and foul a little. I'll skim a little dryer if i think I'm overdoing it.
     
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  14. Boston reefer

    Boston reefer Member R2R Supporter

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    Im in the same boat as you. I notice no negative affects or delayed growth because of it. Glad to know I'm not the only one :)
     
  15. Diesel

    Diesel String Stalker. R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Photo of the Month Award Reef Spotlight Award

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    Music to my ears........... music to my ears, my friend.
     
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  16. LadAShark

    LadAShark Active Member

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    Silence is bliss.
    Fish are beautiful, so are corals, but they're also quiet, ahem, bark bark, woof woof, meow.
     
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  17. nitro

    nitro Well-Known Member R2R Supporter

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    Adam,
    I love reading your posts and I am fairly new to this, so what is your recipe to get your stuff looking great and thriving?
    Thanks, Nitro
     
  18. knukles55

    knukles55 Active Member

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    You know a lot of things about this hobby are confusing me but one thing I've learned about is that things take time to dial in. What I mean by this is I've been running leds for 6 months now and still my corals aren't were I would want them to look like it's hard to play the blame game on water chemistry or lighting since I still think my corals aren't used to my lighting. This is just an example of what I'm dealing with I'm in no means looking for a spotlight here.

    20160524_171739.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2016
  19. Battlecorals

    Battlecorals Aquaculturist R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor

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    Hi there,

    Thanks lot for the post! No real tricks at all. My best kept secret, that's really no secret at all, is simplicity. I just like to keep my methods and external apparatuses and such to a minimum. I focus heavily on purification of my source water and pay very strict attention to alk. Other than that, I think it's all about being tuned into your system well and responding and reacting when necessary, and not when its unnecessary. I suppose there's a bit of a curve on learning to distinguish the two, but it comes with time and experience to be sure.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2016
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  20. rovster

    rovster Well-Known Member

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    I told you what to do about that!



    In my limited experience the three keys to SPS assuming lighting and flow are adequate are:
    1. Stable alk
    2. Relatively stable everything else
    3. Good 0 TDS chloramine free RO

    ALL my issues ever have been traced to one of the above.....just sayin'.....
     
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