Phosphates are zeroing out every day, a few specific questions

[living_tribunal]

To be honest your tank looks pretty young. How old is the system? I think sometimes in this hobby we chase numbers vs keep our parameters stable. Most people strive for lower nutrients until they are focusing specifically on coloring and growing sps. I’d be cautious dosing anything until the tank is fully cycled. Are you doing water changes or running triton method? There’s many ways to be successful in this hobby. If it were me I’d just be patient, let the tank mature and add some fish. Keep your water stable. Feed your fish and let nature handle it. “Nothing good happens fast in a reef tank” and just so you know I’m not just a keyboard warrior here’s my tank. BTW I currently can’t measure phosphate on my test kit and my nitrate is less than 3 ppm. But I’m not losing sleep...

I’m not chasing numbers, I was specifically trying to prevent Dino from occurring in this new tank as well as having any phosphates available for coral growth.

Unfortunately, I was too late in finding what was sucking my phosphate and of course got Dino.

I think something I guess I want people to realize is me wanting to have atleast SOME available phosphate in the tank is not chasing numbers.

It’s simply me trying to maintain my corals health and the health of my biodiversity.

I consider phosphate to be the most underrated yet impeccably important parameter for a system.

Allowing your phosphate levels to remain at zero for extended periods of time is terrible husbandry and can have a devastating impact on your corals and system.

So no, I’m not chasing numbers, I’m doing my best to provide the nutrients my corals need to grow to their full potential.

 

[living_tribunal]

To be honest your tank looks pretty young. How old is the system? I think sometimes in this hobby we chase numbers vs keep our parameters stable. Most people strive for lower nutrients until they are focusing specifically on coloring and growing sps. I’d be cautious dosing anything until the tank is fully cycled. Are you doing water changes or running triton method? There’s many ways to be successful in this hobby. If it were me I’d just be patient, let the tank mature and add some fish. Keep your water stable. Feed your fish and let nature handle it. “Nothing good happens fast in a reef tank” and just so you know I’m not just a keyboard warrior here’s my tank. BTW I currently can’t measure phosphate on my test kit and my nitrate is less than 3 ppm. But I’m not losing sleep...

And obviously my tank is fully cycled. Why would I add any livestock to it if it wasn’t?

I’m not doing any water changes until Dino is eradicated and I find the rate at which phosphates are bound to the rock to match it with an appropriate phosphate dosing regiment.

 

[living_tribunal]

My problem was opposite from yours, I couldn't keep nitrates in my system, therefore making phosphates skyrocket to unmanage levels (no matter what I tried to use...gfo, big WCs, chaeto, etc). Once I made the connection that nitrates and phosphates are actually tied together (inverse in my situation) I started to solved my problems. Some dinos hate nitrates. I had dinos, once I started to dose NeoNitro, the dinos were wiped off from the map in the matter of a week or 2. So...with that being said, I haven't seen you mentioning your nitrate levels...where are they?

I will be switching over to the Green Leaf Aquarium Nitrate product once this batch of NeoNitro runs out. Got it few weeks ago and it's sitting here waiting to be used. Its a no brainer, 2L of NeoNitro is like $38, whereas a pouch of GLA cost like $6 and God only knows how long that will last, but at least many, many folds over the 2L NeoNitro.

Soooo, I am curious about your nitrate levels?

My nitrates have stabilized at 3ppm. I suppose it’s because they can’t be bound to the rock, at least not to the degree phosphates are.

I only learned your point a week or so ago when I was dosing both nitrate and phosphate. After I got my nitrate levels to where I wanted them, I stopped dosing to make sure it didn’t decrease my phosphate levels.

I like brightwells nionitrate personally but am always interested in hearing about others opinions on them. It is more expensive though for sure.

Also, have you cut photoperiod in fuge/the obvious stuff?

 

[Caliguy1983]

And obviously my tank is fully cycled. Why would I add any livestock to it if it wasn’t?

I’m not doing any water changes until Dino is eradicated and I find the rate at which phosphates are bound to the rock to match it with an appropriate phosphate dosing regiment.

Your tank cycle is longer than when you can safely add fish. I’m not referring to the basic nitrogen cycle. When I used the word cycle I didn’t mean cycle in the sense of setting up a tank but giving a tank a good year or so to establish a healthy bacteria load. Trying to achieve a nitrate phosphate balance takes some time and may not be possible until your rock, sand and so forth has more time in the tank. Until then it can absorb and or leach and it just takes some time. So again, how old is the tank?

 

[living_tribunal]

Your tank cycle is longer than when you can safely add fish. I’m not referring to the basic nitrogen cycle. When I used the word cycle I didn’t mean cycle in the sense of setting up a tank but giving a tank a good year or so to establish a healthy bacteria load. Trying to achieve a nitrate phosphate balance takes some time and may not be possible until your rock, sand and so forth has more time in the tank. Until then it can absorb and or leach and it just takes some time. So again, how old is the tank?

Not old, only held livestock for a month and a half. Been up for 2 months.

But again, I refuse to allow my phosphates to just remain at 0. As you can see, this wreaks havoc. After having dino in my frag tank, I made it a commitment to never let it hit 0 again.

This is similar to someone saying their magnesium has dropped to 350 and they can't figure out why they can't increase it only to be told to "stop chasing numbers".

Corals need phosphate, biodiversity needs it, and allowing your system to run without it causes dino blooms like you see in my pic above. So no, I'm not going to starve my coral of a necessary nutrient and allow dino to persist by just ignoring it.

I understand it takes a long time for a tank to completely balance. I'm not denying that. But it would be completely foolish and a waste of a lot of money to allow my corals to die and dino to grow endlessly.

I've only lost one frag since starting this hobby 5-6 months ago out of the 50 I have and it was from dino. I don't want to lose another to this terrible plankton. I also don't want to lose my sps and have a bunch of limp lps because there are no phosphates for them.

I hope I'm not coming off as dismissive but I really just want to determine what's going on with how rocks bind phosphate in order to eradicate this current bout of dino and start to get things stabilized going forward.

 

[Caliguy1983]

Not old, only been up a month and a half.

But again, I refuse to allow my phosphates to just remain at 0. As you can see, this wreaks havoc. After having dino in my frag tank, I made it a commitment to never let it hit 0 again.

This is similar to someone saying their magnesium has dropped to 350 and they can't figure out why they can't increase it only to be told to "stop chasing numbers".

Corals need phosphate, biodiversity needs it, and allowing your system to run without it causes dino blooms like you see in my pic above. So no, I'm not going to starve my coral of a necessary nutrient and allow dino to persist by just ignoring it.

I understand it takes a long time for a tank to completely balance. I'm not denying that. But it would be completely foolish and a waste of a lot of money to allow my corals to die and dino to grow endlessly.

I've only lost one frag since starting this hobby 5-6 months ago out of the 50 I have and it was from dino. I don't want to lose another to this terrible plankton. I also don't want to lose my sps and have a bunch of limp lps.

Your tank is still cycling. You’re going to go through some not so fun stages until everything balances out. To be honest you will have trouble getting your phosphates dialed in for quite some time. If your Nitrate to phosphate ratio gets out of whack you’ll see some nasty bacteria blooms. It’s natural to over control things and worry about one parameter when another one isn’t balanced. Here’s a thread that may be helpful to you :

Good Nitrate to Phosphate ratio for a reef tank?

Hello! Over the years this has been one of my favorite subjects. A while back I noticed my tanks doing a lot better with more NO3 than PO4. When the NO3 matched the PO4 on the lower side the tank begin to grow hair algae in the sump, and dark brown algae on the rocks, overflow box, sand-bed...

www.reef2reef.com

I go back to the old saying “nothing good happens fast in a reef tank” I wouldn’t even be worrying about phosphates reading zero at this point given the tanks age. The rock is absorbing it. Dosing for phosphates and nitrates at this stage is really kind of like playing with gas and fire. That’s something you can worry about further down the road. Be patient, keep things stable and you’ll be successful.

 

[chaoticreefer]

Also, have you cut photoperiod in fuge/the obvious stuff?

Yes, since dosing nitrates, my phosphates have bottomed out. I shorten my refug light time to get phosphates "back" into the system. I haven't had to resort to dosing phosphates yet. When the the times comes (if it comes) I will certainly start dosing phosphates. I have GLA phosphates sitting here and waiting too, since it's so cheap and save on shipping, I figured, "why not have it on stand by?"

I don't believe in cutting the skimmer off, that will cause other problems. So my only other options were refug light or media reactor. I don't like the idea of cutting the flow to media reactor since again it can cause whole new other problems. So....my only recourse was my refug light.

 

[living_tribunal]

Your tank is still cycling. You’re going to go through some not so fun stages until everything balances out. To be honest you will have trouble getting your phosphates dialed in for quite some time. If your Nitrate to phosphate ratio gets out of whack you’ll see some nasty bacteria blooms. It’s natural to over control things and worry about one parameter when another one isn’t balanced. Here’s a thread that may be helpful to you :

Good Nitrate to Phosphate ratio for a reef tank?

Hello! Over the years this has been one of my favorite subjects. A while back I noticed my tanks doing a lot better with more NO3 than PO4. When the NO3 matched the PO4 on the lower side the tank begin to grow hair algae in the sump, and dark brown algae on the rocks, overflow box, sand-bed...

www.reef2reef.com

I go back to the old saying “nothing good happens fast in a reef tank” I wouldn’t even be worrying about phosphates reading zero at this point given the tanks age. The rock is absorbing it. Dosing for phosphates and nitrates at this stage is really kind of like playing with gas and fire. That’s something you can worry about further down the road. Be patient, keep things stable and you’ll be successful.

Lol, so your advise is to not combat dinos at all and just allow my corals to be starved while potentially dying from the dinoflagellate toxin?

 

[living_tribunal]

Yes, since dosing nitrates, my phosphates have bottomed out. I shorten my refug light time to get phosphates "back" into the system. I haven't had to resort to dosing phosphates yet. When the the times comes (if it comes) I will certainly start dosing phosphates. I have GLA phosphates sitting here and waiting too, since it's so cheap and save on shipping, I figured, "why not have it on stand by?"

I don't believe in cutting the skimmer off, that will cause other problems. So my only other options were refug light or media reactor. I don't like the idea of cutting the flow to media reactor since again it can cause whole new other problems. So....my only recourse was my refug light.

I definitely wouldn't cut the skimmer off, that causes more problems than anything good.

One thing my bud on here does is cut his skimmer for 15-25 minutes after feeding. That may help. BRS recommended to cute fuge light to almost 1 hour a day in extreme situations.

 

[Caliguy1983]

Lol, so your advise is to not combat dinos at all and just allow my corals to be starved while potentially dying from the dinoflagellate toxin?

No that is not my advice. My advice is it seems you’ve been only focused on one thing “phosphates”... it’s a balance and now you’re in a Dino battle. In 20 years in the hobby I’ve battled them and won several times. Stick in the hobby long enough you will battle dinos, red slime and bryopsis. Read the thread I posted about Nitrates and phosphates. There’s some good Dino threads too. I chose the dirty method about 4 years ago on a tank that was battling Dino’s. I added lots of pods and beneficial bacteria along with phyto. I also had to do some black outs. You’ll get thru it but it’s more than just phosphates. It’s a balance... that’s all

 

[living_tribunal]

No that is not my advice. My advice is it seems you’ve been only focused on one thing “phosphates”... it’s a balance and now you’re in a Dino battle. In 20 years in the hobby I’ve battled them and won several times. Stick in the hobby long enough you will battle dinos, red slime and bryopsis. Read the thread I posted about Nitrates and phosphates. There’s some good Dino threads too. I chose the dirty method about 4 years ago on a tank that was battling Dino’s. I added lots of pods and beneficial bacteria along with phyto. I also had to do some black outs. You’ll get thru it but it’s more than just phosphates. It’s a balance... that’s all

You assume I haven't done any of that. This is my second time fighting them. I know how to beat it but a core component of that is clearly raising your nutrient levels. So I of course made a thread on what could be going on sucking all of my phosphates in a matter of hours every day.

If I can't get even a 1ppb level of phosphates, I can't fortify the growth of an algae to outcompete the dino. My tank has lots of pods, lots of phytos, lots of different bacterias added. The one thing it doesn't have is what it needs the most: phosphate. Since my nitrate levels are measurable, and in a good range, figuring out why I can't get my phosphate levels up is priority #1. Dino will wipe my tank if not. All of my corals are very healthy and growing very strong right now, I'd like to nip this in the butt.

 

[pigmo]

we chase numbers like nobody's business lol ;Clown;Clown

 

[living_tribunal]

we chase numbers like nobody's business lol ;Clown;Clown

And your frag tank looks dang good.

 

[Caliguy1983]

My nitrates have stabilized at 3ppm. I suppose it’s because they can’t be bound to the rock, at least not to the degree phosphates are.

I only learned your point a week or so ago when I was dosing both nitrate and phosphate. After I got my nitrate levels to where I wanted them, I stopped dosing to make sure it didn’t decrease my phosphate levels.

I like brightwells nionitrate personally but am always interested in hearing about others opinions on them. It is more expensive though for sure.

Also, have you cut photoperiod in fuge/the obvious stuff?

A few posts up you admitted you just learned the relationship between nitrates and phosphates. You made my argument for me. You focused solely on phosphates alone when there’s a delicate balance. Raising phosphates alone isn’t going to eradicate Dino’s. I posted a thread to help explain the relationship with the two and you assumed I was belittling you. Clearly, you must know what you’re doing because you’re extremely defensive. Good luck with your battle. And brace yourself there will be many in this hobby.

 

[living_tribunal]

A few posts up you admitted you just learned the relationship between nitrates and phosphates. You made my argument for me. You focused solely on phosphates alone when there’s a delicate balance. Raising phosphates alone isn’t going to eradicate Dino’s. I posted a thread to help explain the relationship with the two and you assumed I was belittling you. Clearly, you must know what you’re doing because you’re extremely defensive. Good luck with your battle. And brace yourself there will be many in this hobby.

I never assumed such, I assumed that you are dismissing the current affairs I'm dealing with.

I've beat dino once so yes, I do know how to beat it. And am aware on what else needs to be done do beyond raising nutrients but I'm not going to make a thread nor talk about all of those when this thread is focused on a specific problem I'm having. If I can't raise phosphates above 0 when that's a key component of maintaining a healthy tank, why can I ask others about it?

Sure, I may not have known the relationship between nitrate and phosphate. That doesn't mean I don't know how to prevent and eradicate dino in a tank. ANYONE in this hobby will tell you that a tank with 0 phosphates is not good and almost everyone recommends that you have some phosphates in the tank.

You can help me, and the others here, figure out why our tanks can't keep any phosphates in our tanks by explaining the specifics of how calcium carbonate in rock and sand binds the phosphate or dosing regiments to combat is as others have done, or you can continue parroting idioms of the tank hobby and pivoting the conversation away from the focus by belittling others.

 

[Caliguy1983]

I never assumed such, I assumed that you are dismissing the current affairs I'm dealing with.

I've beat dino once so yes, I do know how to beat it. And am aware on what else needs to be done do beyond raising nutrients but I'm not going to make a thread nor talk about all of those when this thread is focused on a specific problem I'm having. If I can't raise phosphates above 0 when that's a key component of maintaining a healthy tank, why can I ask others about it?

Sure, I may not have known the relationship between nitrate and phosphate. That doesn't mean I don't know how to prevent and eradicate dino in a tank. ANYONE in this hobby will tell you that a tank with 0 phosphates is not good and almost everyone recommends that you have some phosphates in the tank.

You can help me, and the others here, figure out why our tanks can't keep any phosphates in our tanks or you can continue parroting idioms of the tank hobby and pivoting the conversation away from the focus by belittling others.

That’s why I asked some questions on how old the tank was and so forth and you raised your hackles. I think my tone was taken out of context and you became defensive from the get go. Your tanks are immature. They may be cycled but clearly not balanced as that takes a lot time depending on rock, bacteria, sand etc. Sometimes there’s nothing we can do until nature takes its course and we do more harm than good. I think if we had a face to face conversation this would have been much more we’ll received. If you’ve beat it once, you’ll beat it again. I was just with one of the largest coral suppliers in the biz over the weekend and we discussed this topic of how people dose nitrates and phosphates with good intentions but really get things out of whack. A lot of the big names is the sps world are getting away from that. Instead they are focusing on raising nutrients naturally with feeding their fish vs relying on a bottle. Sincerely, friend good luck. You’ll be fine 6 months down the road and the tanks will do much better.

 

[living_tribunal]

That’s why I asked some questions on how old the tank was am so forth and you raised your hackles. I think my tone was taken out of context and you became defensive from the get go. Your tanks are immature. They may be cycled but clearly not balanced as that takes a lot time depending on rock, bacteria, sand etc. Sometimes there’s nothing we can do until nature takes its course and we do more harm than good. I think if we had a face to face conversation this would have been much more we’ll received. If you’ve beat it once, you’ll beat it again. I was just with one of the largest coral suppliers in the biz over the weekend and we discussed this topic of how people dose nitrates and phosphates with good intentions but really get things out of whack. A lot of the big names is the sps world are getting away from that. Instead they are focusing on raising them naturally with feeding their fish vs relying on a bottle. Sincerely, friend good luck. You’ll be fine 6 months down the road and the tanks will do much better.

I understand that and that's why I said I hope I'm not coming of as being dismissive. But all things considered, a big component of beating is having phosphates present. No, it's not everything, but it could be argued that it's a requirement in order to do so.

Per Randy's recommendation, I can't get measurable phosphates without dosing for the forseeable future. If I don't eliminate dino in the forseeable future then it will kill my livestock.

Your suggestion implies to not dose phosphates which means not eliminating dino. I have ramped up feeding but it's not making any impact at all. It's even causing harm triggering a slight bacterial bloom. The only way to increase them to combat the dino is by dosing unfortunately. As I've expressed previously in this post, I don't like it and want a natural system but you have to do what you have to do in order to prevent death to your livestock.

I also simply want phosphates for my corals, and am happy to experience temporary instability in my tank if it means my corals are happier and healthier.

We're both going off on tangents here and maybe we can call it as agree to disagree and get back to finding some solutions. I apologize if I came off as harsh, simply looking for more insight on the matter.

 

[Caliguy1983]

I understand that and that's why I said I hope I'm not coming of as being dismissive. But all things considered, a big component of beating is having phosphates present. No, it's not everything, but it could be argued that it's a requirement in order to do so.

Per Randy's recommendation, I can't get measurable phosphates without dosing for the forseeable future. If I don't eliminate dino in the forseeable future then it will kill my livestock.

Your suggestion implies to not dose phosphates which means not eliminating dino. I have ramped up feeding but it's not making any impact at all. It's even causing harm triggering a slight bacterial bloom. The only way to increase them to combat the dino is by dosing unfortunately. As I've expressed previously in this post, I don't like it and want a natural system but you have to do what you have to do in order to prevent death to your livestock.

I also simply want phosphates for my corals, and am happy to experience temporary instability in my tank if it means my corals are happier and healthier.

We're both going off on tangents here and maybe we can call it as agree to disagree and get back to finding some solutions. I apologize if I came off as harsh, simply looking for more insight on the matter.

Well that wasn’t my intention it was more so that there’s more factors then just phosphate alone. IE the delicate balance of Nitrate and Phosphate. And also that we can’t control a true tank cycle with a bottle and eventually time can help solve this. That being said, I understand where your frustration comes after reading back. Cheers man. I didn’t mean to get you side tracked.

 

[living_tribunal]

Well that wasn’t my intention it was more so that there’s more factors then just phosphate alone. IE the delicate balance of Nitrate and Phosphate. And also that we can’t control a true tank cycle with a bottle and eventually time can help solve this. That being said, I understand where your frustration comes after reading back. Cheers man. I didn’t mean to get you side tracked.

I'm in bed but raised a bottle of melatonin back at you.

Believe me, I will be very happy when I don't have to dose phosphates any longer. I just placed an order for my next two fish to grow my poop army. They'll be joining the fight in a month once they're out of qt.

Good looking tank btw.

 

[ScottB]

I've had this battle also. And also it is with my frag system, that has been expanding. At each expansion 40G to 160G, and 160G to 260G I could not keep PO4 even with dosing. Each time I got hit with dinos (ostreopsis).

I am pretty sure that if I had loaded in a ton of old, PO4 saturated rock at each expansion, I would not have had these challenges. I only brought over mature Marine Pure blocks, and my sense (no science) is they don't bind PO4 as well as good old rock does.

Until your rock/media/substrate gets loaded with PO4, it will continue absorbing it. Just keep gradually increasing your PO4 dose. You will have to keep testing often. You may also need to review your mix solution (or is this premix)?