Phyto culturing. Color/harvest time question.

[kilnakorr]

I seem to have some 'issues' judging when to harvest my phyto. The last few times, I think I've waited just a day to long and the phyto seems to lose it's bright green colir and go a bit 'dusty' green.
I read most harvest from 5 to 7 days time.

Picture below of mine after roughly a day and a half:

Already quite dark looking.

Tomorrow it will be a little darker, then probably start going 'dusty', and settle a bit on the bottom
Adding more fertilizer does not help.

Any ideas what I can try, or should I simply harvest every 3 days?

 

[fryman]

Do you have a microscope?

I think you have synechococcus, which is technically a type of cyanobacteria. Synechococcus at low to moderate density is indistinguishable by the naked eye from other phytoplankton such as nannochloropsis or tetraselmis. It grows very fast and when it gets more dense you may be able to tell it doesn't look quite "right". To my eye synechococcus looks a darker green compared to the brighter, more flourescent-like green of nanno. The best way to tell for sure is with a microscope.

What are you using the phyto for? Synnechococcus can be used as feed. It is used in some blends of phyto such as phyto-feast from reef nutrition. As a single source food it's not the best but not the worst either.

 

[kilnakorr]

Do you have a microscope?

I think you have synechococcus, which is technically a type of cyanobacteria. Synechococcus at low to moderate density is indistinguishable by the naked eye from other phytoplankton such as nannochloropsis or tetraselmis. It grows very fast and when it gets more dense you may be able to tell it doesn't look quite "right". To my eye synechococcus looks a darker green compared to the brighter, more flourescent-like green of nanno. The best way to tell for sure is with a microscope.

What are you using the phyto for? Synnechococcus can be used as feed. It is used in some blends of phyto such as phyto-feast from reef nutrition. As a single source food it's not the best but not the worst either.

It was bought as nano phyto from an online phyto/zooplankton company, so I doubt it is something else.
I did try with a microscope, but can't really tell, or take a useful picture.

 

[fryman]

It was bought as nano phyto from an online phyto/zooplankton company, so I doubt it is something else.
I did try with a microscope, but can't really tell, or take a useful picture.

I have had cultures get taken over by synechococcus before, and seen it happen to others as well. It is very common.

Several things you state point to this, imho. Nanno does not grow that fast, is a bright flourescent green, and it stays suspended. Cyano however behaves as you describe.

 

[kilnakorr]

I have had cultures turn into synechococcus before, and seen it happen to others as well. It is very common.

Several things you state point to this, imho. Nanno does not grow that fast, is a bright flourescent green, and it stays suspended. Cyano however behaves as you describe.

Makes sense.
However this was also the case from the very first culture, so nothing has changed.
Obviously, I cannot guarantee they haven't mislabelled the bottles I bought.
Looking at pictures online of both types, I doubt I'd be able to confirm which type I have, using a microscope.

 

[fryman]

Makes sense.
However this was also the case from the very first culture, so nothing has changed.
Obviously, I cannot guarantee they haven't mislabelled the bottles I bought.
Looking at pictures online of both types, I doubt I'd be able to confirm which type I have, using a microscope.

Probably not mislabelled, no-one sells starter cultures of synechococcus afaik. There is no need, I think you could just use water from any reef tank, put into a reactor and in short order you will have green water.

The starter may have been contaminated but unfortunately the vendor also has plausable deniability since it's so ubiquitous.

Under a microscope synechococcus is smaller and less spherical than nanno. Also when more dense the cells may stick together, unlike nanno. Not always tho..

 

[kilnakorr]

Probably not mislabelled, no-one sells starter cultures of synechococcus afaik. There is no need, I think you could just use water from any reef tank, put into a reactor and in short order you will have green water.

The starter may have been contaminated but unfortunately the vendor also has plausable deniability since it's so ubiquitous.

Under a microscope synechococcus is smaller and less spherical than nanno. Also when more dense the cells may stick together, unlike nanno. Not always tho..

True. But when I tried some time ago, all I got was a grey blur with lots of round-ish things.
Gonna give it another try.


Update. No luck with the microscope.
Lots of dots, and can't really make out the shapes at x900 zoom.
Cheap kids microscope, so not easy to focus.

 

[fryman]

True. But when I tried some time ago, all I got was a grey blur with lots of round-ish things.
Gonna give it another try.


Update. No luck with the microscope.
Lots of dots, and can't really make out the shapes at x900 zoom.
Cheap kids microscope, so not easy to focus.

At 900x the cells should be pretty big actually. My pics were taken at 300-600x. Probably the focus is off. Can be hard to focus some "student-grade" microscopes.

I'm not sure what advice I can offer at this point. If you really want to know what you have, I
guess you'll need a better microscope.

Or, you could just stay the course? Sounds like you have a handle on when the culture consumes the f/2 fertilizer (turns yellow). So, just harvest the day before. Feed your livestock & see how it goes.

Or if you don't want to harvest so frequently, double or triple the f/2, use lots of light (maybe couple of daylight leds from the dollar store), keep a good bubble going, and see how dense you can get the culture in a week or whatever. Using trial and error you could figure out how much fert to use to get however long you want between harvests. Harvest just before the culture would run out of f/2 so you aren't dumping excess fertilizer in your reef tank.

I've read reports of people getting good results dosing synechococcus. Also it can reach amazing cell densities, which is kinda cool.

 

[kilnakorr]

At 900x the cells should be pretty big actually. My pics were taken at 300-600x. Probably the focus is off. Can be hard to focus some "student-grade" microscopes.

I'm not sure what advice I can offer at this point. If you really want to know what you have, I
guess you'll need a better microscope.

Or, you could just stay the course? Sounds like you have a handle on when the culture consumes the f/2 fertilizer (turns yellow). So, just harvest the day before. Feed your livestock & see how it goes.

Or if you don't want to harvest so frequently, double or triple the f/2, use lots of light (maybe couple of daylight leds from the dollar store), keep a good bubble going, and see how dense you can get the culture in a week or whatever. Using trial and error you could figure out how much fert to use to get however long you want between harvests. Harvest just before the culture would run out of f/2 so you aren't dumping excess fertilizer in your reef tank.

I've read reports of people getting good results dosing synechococcus. Also it can reach amazing cell densities, which is kinda cool.

Thanks. I might be I'm using the microscope wrong or looking at the wrong thing.
I guess the time it take for the phyto to get really dense, also depends on the starting point. Doing 1/3 of dense culture to 2/3 water would create a dense culture faster than 1/10 culture to 9/10 water.

I'm currently only using the phyto to try culturing pods, so not using it in my tank.

 

[kilnakorr]

@fryman

And update.
I'm not sure what happened this time.
It took 5 days to get it a nice dark green, and the first two days nothing seemed to happen.
Picture of harvested and new culture:

Guess now xmas is comming I can ask Santa for a decent microscope

 

[fryman]

Yeah I dunno either. At least something is growing.

So you feed this to copepods, right? How are the copepods doing?

 

[kilnakorr]

Yeah I dunno either. At least something is growing.

So you feed this to copepods, right? How are the copepods doing?

Yes. Just for pods.
It seems I have started growing lots of algae in the pod cultures.
Pods are still alive, but can't say if they multiply or not.
Going to clean out the pod cultures, so I guess I will see how many pods I have in there.