Phytoplankton Fuge?

[Jacked Reefer]

i was walking my dog today and I had a phenomenal idea. One cheap dosing pump slowly pumping water from a phyto culture into the display tank, then another head is pumping aquarium water in at the same rate. The ramifications of this idea were to work would eliminate some coral feeding needs and replicate the ocean environment at the least. It could also theoretically minimumaly lower nitrates, make keeping nps more successful, eliminate nusance algae blooms by having a source of phyto to outcompete them. And make wild caught fish less stressed. Would certain species grow fast enough to keep up with dosing? Or is this just a kid hoping lol.

 

[Alexreefer]

Actually sounds like it might work. Lets get some more thoughts on this. #reefsquad

 

[User]

You are essentially describing a Chemostat— a continuous culturing device designed to continually replenish nutrients, while removing byproducts and waste, from biofermentation reactions.

When they work, they are great at keeping a steady stream of product flowing, while being very efficient at using available resources.

When they fail— and they do fail with quite some regularity- it is due to contamination with unwanted bacteria, or fungus. The culture can also crash due to instability in the nutrient supply, oxygenation or buildup of toxic products due to insufficient exfiltration. They also need constant parameter monitoring and are typically set up with Neptune apex style monitoring systems, except lab grade costing 10’s of 1000’s of $

If I were to do this— and, for the record, I wouldn’t— i would do a number of test runs first, before adding the display tank into the loop. You have to balance nutrient supply, flow, exfiltration (too fast and you waste resources before the phyto can utilize them) and it all has to be tailored to the multiplication rate of the organism in question.

With bacteria, which have a division time if 20-40 minutes under perfect lab conditions- setting up this system can be very difficult. And that’s with strains of bacteria adapted to optimal survival under these conditions.

Personally, I’d stick to doing batch culturing and performing decontamination on the materials on a routine basis. Batch culture is a lot easier, the yields can be easily scaled, and they don’t have to be monitored almost constantly. They also minimize your losses if a contamination event occurs.

Good idea though- good stuff

 

[Jacked Reefer]

You are essentially describing a Chemostat— a continuous culturing device designed to continually replenish nutrients, while removing byproducts and waste, from biofermentation reactions.

When they work, they are great at keeping a steady stream of product flowing, while being very efficient at using available resources.

When they fail— and they do fail with quite some regularity- it is due to contamination with unwanted bacteria, or fungus. The culture can also crash due to instability in the nutrient supply, oxygenation or buildup of toxic products due to insufficient exfiltration. They also need constant parameter monitoring and are typically set up with Neptune apex style monitoring systems, except lab grade costing 10’s of 1000’s of $

If I were to do this— and, for the record, I wouldn’t— i would do a number of test runs first, before adding the display tank into the loop. You have to balance nutrient supply, flow, exfiltration (too fast and you waste resources before the phyto can utilize them) and it all has to be tailored to the multiplication rate of the organism in question.

With bacteria, which have a division time if 20-40 minutes under perfect lab conditions- setting up this system can be very difficult. And that’s with strains of bacteria adapted to optimal survival under these conditions.

Personally, I’d stick to doing batch culturing and performing decontamination on the materials on a routine basis. Batch culture is a lot easier, the yields can be easily scaled, and they don’t have to be monitored almost constantly. They also minimize your losses if a contamination event occurs.

Good idea though- good stuff

Thank you for your input. I have basic programming and electrical skills and I was thinking about bacteria and phyto coming from completely stable environment. My idea was to use simple probes and use an if than statement to shut of the possibly collapsing culture from polluting the tank and alert my phone. I have two containers that have the same lid that could be switched out if the main tank culture collapsed I could easily jump start another one and put it on the tank.

There are couple ideas I have for preliminary testing just lacking funds.

 

[reeferals]

I've tossed a similar idea around with making a closed loop, low flow refugium with a pump like an aqua lifter and a tight screwing and or gasket food container. I was worried that continuous pressure, even from a low powered pump would cause something like a food container to leak. I do not have any experience with dosing pumps. How tight are their tolerances? I could see a problem developing if one head of a dosing pump dosed even a minuscule amount more than the other.

 

[User]

Not to be an butt- but do you have any experience whatsoever in large scale culturing techniques?

How do you assay for culture failure using probes? What combination of probe output signals ‘contaminated’? This issue alone requires 24 hour monitoring by trained microbiologists, and, if it could be automated like you suggest, would be revolutionary in the industry.


I only ask because I feel like you are under appreciating the complexity of the biological side of your proposal.

I have 12 years experience with batch and continuous culturing techniques for producing peptide-based vaccine components, and I would pick batch culturing any day of the week.

 

[User]

Thank you for your input. I have basic programming and electrical skills and I was thinking about bacteria and phyto coming from completely stable environment.

>> I don’t know what this means. Could you explain a little more?

My idea was to use simple probes and use an if than statement to shut of the possibly collapsing culture from polluting the tank and alert my phone.

>> what probes were you planning to use?

An example of what we run in industrial processes- temp, pH, O2, CO2, BOD, redox potential, turbidity transmittance (this has to be calibrated and custom designed for each set-up and costs $2-3k each time)

>>what would a typical ‘if/then’ sub-routine look like, and how does it attribute ‘weight’ to that particular value in comparison to one of the other factors? Is pH change more or less important than turbidity and o2 saturation?

I have two containers that have the same lid that could be switched out if the main tank culture collapsed I could easily jump start another one and put it on the tank.

There are couple ideas I have for preliminary testing just lacking funds.

 

[cooltowncorals]

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-02/feature/index.php

Take a look at article this would be similar idea using concentrated algae with out replenishment. The only problem I see with your idea is putting tank water in your culture adding the bacteria from your tank would cause a crash I would think. Considering that the main concern is sterilizing all culture equipment making sure not to contaminate ect is number one priority of culturing and your tank water is “contaminated” with tons of bacteria.

That article has a good explanation of adding Phyto to a tank in relation to flake food and keeping nps corals thriving. I just got a bottle of the shellfish and plan am using it to feed my filter feeders nps ect I will not use at nearly that rate maybe 1-2 ml a day to start.

 

[Jacked Reefer]

>> I don’t know what this means. Could you explain a little more?



>> what probes were you planning to use?

An example of what we run in industrial processes- temp, pH, O2, CO2, BOD, redox potential, turbidity transmittance (this has to be calibrated and custom designed for each set-up and costs $2-3k each time)

>>what would a typical ‘if/then’ sub-routine look like, and how does it attribute ‘weight’ to that particular value in comparison to one of the other factors? Is pH change more or less important than turbidity and o2 saturation?

Sorry I got in a train of thought and was just ranting. I would hook up a ph an CO2 probe as funds are lacking for others and those would be the most useful to my understanding. CO2 would be able to loosely measure photosynthesis rate and ph to ensure stability to prevent bacterial outbreak. Say if there was a significant rise in CO2. Or large swings in ph the if then routine would turn off both heads to prevent nutrient spikes and disable transmitting more bacteria to the phyto culture and turn on an led light or notify my phone to alert me of the issue. I would then start a separate culture and if the one attached to the tank crashed I would fix the issues that caused the crash and hook up the second one I started with minimal delay.

 

[Jacked Reefer]

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-02/feature/index.php

Take a look at article this would be similar idea using concentrated algae with out replenishment. The only problem I see with your idea is putting tank water in your culture adding the bacteria from your tank would cause a crash I would think. Considering that the main concern is sterilizing all culture equipment making sure not to contaminate ect is number one priority of culturing and your tank water is “contaminated” with tons of bacteria.

That article has a good explanation of adding Phyto to a tank in relation to flake food and keeping nps corals thriving. I just got a bottle of the shellfish and plan am using it to feed my filter feeders nps ect I will not use at nearly that rate maybe 1-2 ml a day to start.

The tank water being contaminated also is another issue I thought of. Since I’m trying to basically replicate phyto heaven (the open ocean) I would need minimal bacteria. But the good thing is that in aquaria there is at least one device I know of that could make it close to sterile as possible (UV sterilization) I could get small one of these and when the dosing pump was drawing water it would travel slowly through the sterilizer before entering the culture.

Something like this would be much easier to apply if you had an ato water change running. A supply of pure clean saltwater constantly running to the tank is the optimal conditions for my idea.

 

[User]

Your ‘ato’ type idea is more like a ‘turbidostat’ in principle.

Slightly easier than a true chemostat, but needs a positive control loop for measuring the output flow rate. I think something like the genesis renew is closest to what is used industrially, and within cost reach for your limited funds situation.

The uv idea is valid.

There is no single data measure that indicates contamination or crash. If you figure it out, there are 2 research groups I know of that would love to work with you- they could free up three full time personnel and re-task $100, 000 in equipment if your system worked. That’s what’s needed industrially to monitor and control their biofermentation processes.

Enjoyed the conversation, and got my brain working while it was spinning with insomnia. But now my babies are up and I need to get back to my day, lol.

Keep posting, would like to see if this develops further

 

[Jacked Reefer]

Will definitely update. If I can convince my parents to turn the laundry room into my lab again there will be tests. Ugly, cheap, tests. But testing none the less

 

[cpschult]

Conductivity would be your best measure of cell density.. but it would be interesting to see how saltwater interfered with it.

It would probably be easiest to do this in conjunction with fresh salt water, with removal of tank water (as a daily water change system).

My work does large scale probiotic manufacturing and I can tell you that getting the exact thing you want to grow is a massive pain.

 

[User]

Conductivity wouldn’t work in the saltwater. It’s already hitting the top end, plus phyto wouldn’t increase the signal based on density.

The best measurement of cell density has always, and will always be, turbidity. It’s a simple linear relationship and easy to measure.

A point light source and a photodiode. Keep the sample volume (actually the length of light path through the sample) the same, and light intensity the same, and the relationship is very linear. It can also work on an automated scale using micro-fabricated sampling apparatus and continuous reading.

If I hit 12 hours on this, I think I’m contractually obligated by my present company to ask for consulting fees, lol

 

[Jacked Reefer]

I've tossed a similar idea around with making a closed loop, low flow refugium with a pump like an aqua lifter and a tight screwing and or gasket food container. I was worried that continuous pressure, even from a low powered pump would cause something like a food container to leak. I do not have any experience with dosing pumps. How tight are their tolerances? I could see a problem developing if one head of a dosing pump dosed even a minuscule amount more than the other.

I didn’t see your comment before but you bring up a good point. A way to circumnavigate this would be to raise the container above the tank and only use one dosing pump to pump in. Drill a hole and create a little overflow. This is what I will do for my tests (if they get the go ahead) but if you wanted it under you stand you would need at least a two head dosing pump.

 

[reeferals]

I didn’t see your comment before but you bring up a good point. A way to circumnavigate this would be to raise the container above the tank and only use one dosing pump to pump in. Drill a hole and create a little overflow. This is what I will do for my tests (if they get the go ahead) but if you wanted it under you stand you would need at least a two head dosing pump.

Right, similar to a HOB filter. But I do wonder how a 2 dosing pump or a closed loop contraption, at or below tank level, could be assembled mitigating leaks/overflows.

 

[chris85]

If you could completely sterilize the water coming in you would be ok. With that said you have more than bacteria to worry about. (Copeopods, rotifers, etc.) If you just use fresh sterilized salt water and drip it in while you have a drip out you should be ok.

 

[User]

Y’all are way underestimating the complexity of this...

 

[Jacked Reefer]

Right, similar to a HOB filter. But I do wonder how a 2 dosing pump or a closed loop contraption, at or below tank level, could be assembled mitigating leaks/overflows.

Wish I could help you. But unfortunately I like chemistry and biology much more liquid mechanics.

 

[reeferals]

Wish I could help you. But unfortunately I like chemistry and biology much more liquid mechanics.

Of course. But with the question out there maybe someone with the appropriate background will see it and chime in.