Planning for a Small Predator Tank and Breeding Setup for Live Feeder Mollies/Guppies

[Terrp]

I’m in the middle stages of planning for a small predator tank plus a live feeder breeding setup and have some questions for the small predator keepers out there.

First, here’s the current plan so far…

• Overall system: Around 700g total, which includes the following tanks plumbed into the main system.
  
  
• Predator cube tank: 50g (24x24x20) or 78g (30x30x20) centered around a Dwarf Zebra Lionfish and fleshy LPS. The lion will be fed exclusively live mollies, guppies and/or ghost shrimp (every other day when small, then twice per week). The lion will be the only predator that eats mollies and guppies, but the other predators will also hunt ghosties (though they will get most of their food by daily feedings of pellet and frozen).
  
  
• Molly and/or guppy breeder refugium: At least 50g (36x18x18), possibly larger, with temp around 80°. While brackish or FW might be better for breeding, this will be plumbed into the main SW system to simplify setup, monitoring and maintenance. It will be heavily planted with macros, both for filtration and to provide as much cover as possible for the fry with some open swim space for the adult breeders. Since the breeders will eat some of their own fry, the survival rate will be lower than if I used a separate nursery tank, but I don’t think it’s worth the extra headache to watch for and catch the pregnant females and to shuffle fry between tanks, and I can always augment the supply by buying more FW mollies or guppies if I don’t get enough breeding yield in a single large breeding tank. The inflow will be the output from the large main display tank and will be either (a) inline where water enters one side of the breeder and exits the other (like a typical refugium) or (b) via return pump and overflow output (like a typical display tank). Either way, all flow in the tank will be provided by the inflow with no circulation pumps to damage the fry. There will be a sponge on the output to prevent fry from escaping (with an emergency overflow in case the main overflow gets blocked). The initial breeders will be acclimated from FW or will be QT'd from SW. I’ll start with 3 breeding males and 6-9 breeding females, since I expect a relatively low fry survival rate and will maintain a ratio of 2-3 breeding females per breeding male. My hope is to produce enough 2-month-old feeders each month to satisfy the lion's feeding needs.
  
  
• Ghost shrimp refugium: Very similar setup to the molly/guppy breeder refugium, but geared towards ghost shrimp, pod breeding and macro algae filtration.

So, here are my questions (and feel free to only answer those questions that interest you)...

1. Any concerns or recommendations for my setup?
   
   
2. About how many 2-month-old mollies would a full-grown dwarf zebra lion eat per meal if it were the only thing eaten during the meal? How many 2-month-old guppies? How many ghosties? Just trying to get a sense for the volume of feeders I'll need to produce...
   
   
3. Does the lion need variety, or could I feed it only mollies, only guppies or only ghosties for all meals? If just 1 or 2 were offered, which would be best?
   
   
4. To yield the most live food per month for the lion, would it be better to breed just mollies, just guppies or a combination of both in a single large breeder tank? Things that may impact this would be whether either would breed less in SW, the difference in the size of mollies vs. guppies, whether either would breed less in a crowded tank, whether one is more cannibalistic with fry than the other and how much mollies and guppies would fight in the same crowded tank. I know mollies and guppies will cross breed, but I don’t know if they’d choose to cross breed if they had their own kind to choose from.
   
   
5. Stocking advice? I came across the following 2018 post from @lion king with his perfect stocking list for a small lion tank that included some fish that could potentially fit in the lion’s mouth, even when fully grown, like a flame hawkfish and a redtail filefish. Looking at my own stocking wish list, I’d be interested to know if Lion King or anyone else has tried a flame hawkfish, leopard wrasse, canary wrasse, redtail filefish and/or aiptasia eating filefish in a 50-75g tank with a dwarf lion and whether it was successful. I recall reading on another site years ago that wrasses and dwarf angels were smart enough to avoid dwarf lions and were generally good with the lion if gotten first and larger, but I don’t recall anything specific regarding smaller hawkfish or filefish. I did have a dwarf zebra lion years ago in a 220g with stocking that included dwarf angels and a sixline wrasse with no problem, but I don’t know if the same would be true in a 50-75g cube. Thoughts?

My dwarf lion tank is my fav of all time; I keep a fu, fuzzy, zebra, and antennata. So you could do more than one dwarf lion. I also like dwarf angels, a flame angel is no wimp. I like leopard wrasses for their predatory action, mine loves to hunt down live ghost shrimp. The flame hawkfish is a b.a.**** trust me, a great predatory fish. A leopard toby or valentino puffer would also be a good small predator, though personally I don't like them because of their nippiness. An orange or redtail filefish loves to hunt as well, they are cousins to triggers and have a swim style similar which makes them some of my favs for a smaller tank. My perfect small predator tank would be 1 or 2 dwarf lions, a flame hawkfish, a leopard wrasse, flame angel, and one of the filefish I mentioned. Just remember make sure to size everything properly; dwarf lions need to start out small and anything else needs to be too large for them to eat

 

[Gp!]

Molly and/or guppy breeder refugium: At least 50g (36x18x18), possibly larger, with temp around 80°. While brackish or FW might be better for breeding, this will be plumbed into the main SW system to simplify setup, monitoring and maintenance. It will be heavily planted with macros, both for filtration and to provide as much cover as possible for the fry

I would go as large as possible if you want to rely on them as a sole food source. They seem to do well with little care. Lots of rock and chaeto seems to work for me. And lots of food.

Ghost shrimp refugium: Very similar setup to the molly/guppy breeder refugium, but geared towards ghost shrimp, pod breeding and macro algae filtration.

I tried this in the past for ghost shrimp. It didn't work out. If you're successful with it please share your tricks.

To yield the most live food per month for the lion, would it be better to breed just mollies, just guppies or a combination of both

Just mollies. I tried guppies with mollies in the past and the guppies never produced. Get sailfin mollies.

 

[lion king]

I would take what I said back then with caution, while those may work, sizing is utmost important and understanding growth rates. Inappropriately sizing of the smaller wrasses and hawkfish will end badly, these fish need to be full size housed with very small lions to start. Today I would rethink that stocking reference, while I have kept a flame hawk with a fu manchu, and a full grown male could live with my current zebra. But those are risky choices, I would rethink any small wrasses, the redtail filefish properly sized should be fine. I have watched my lions stalk out sleeping spots and hidey holes and eat fish that I thought they couldn't, and a smaller tank will definitely make it riskier.

A full grown zebra could eat from 3-5 mollies a week or equivalence to 20-30 ghosties. You would have to get a variety of true salt water shrimp to breed in saltwater, mollies will breed in saltwater but gestation is much longer. I don't think you will get guppies to breed in full saltwater. The variety of ghosties I get breed in ph closer to neutral. You may find better breeding info on these in forums dedicated to breeding mollies, guppies, and ghosties. My current zebra that I have had for over 4 years won't eat live fish, mostly live ghosties for her. I need way too much volume to breed, it takes time to grow out, for me it was less costly in time and expense really to just buy them ready to feed.

Your plans sound awesome, if you click my name and "find all threads" you will find much more current and experienced information, I think what you quoted from me was very old. I'm still learning every day,

 

[Terrp]

Thanks to both of you for the fast and extremely helpful thoughts!

Based on your feedback, I’d probably only want to breed mollies, but hearing that the lion may not even eat them makes the idea of building out a big plumbed-in breeding tank less desirable. So, scratch that, and I’ll instead use the space for a separate FW tank for holding FW ghost shrimp that I buy rather than breed.

Given the risk with the smaller predators, I’ll go with the larger tank to make a little more room for predators and other tank mates that better match or exceed the lion's size.

And Lion King, I've read LOTS of your threads and posts! Thank you for all the great advice you've shared over the years.

 

[lion king]

Zebra/Dwarf Lionfish(Dendrochirus zebra)

Sometimes just to referred to as a dwarf lionfish, the zebra dwarf lionfish is often overlooked. I think one reason is because at the lfs they will generally appear brownish and not very striking. Once in a healthy environment and fed a quality diet, you will see that this is a very beautiful...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Seansea]

I know you said your not gonna do it but i keep mollies in my qt tank to keep it cycled. They breed like crazy. Like constantly. Half the fry disappaer but hapf just keep on truckin. I feed the taNk like 3-4 times a day so the fry get some food and have brine shrimp babys brewing all the time. My goal is to have about 7 mollies to add to display tank when im done with qt. They will produce live food for rest of tank. Im using black mollies.

 

[YungSonTheSun]

Why not do a brine shrimp hatchery too? Gives you a bit more options with food.