Please help with my algae/bacteria/dino/PO4 paradox

JPK

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Hi All,

I am having an issue with algae and nutrients. I’ll try to keep this to the point.

I have a 150-gallon bare-bottom SPS system (48x30x22). The tank is 10 months old and is well stocked with fish (lots of tangs and other algae eaters), cuc and coral. The tank has a lot of flow (4xMP40s) and I run the return at 780 GPH. For filtration I run a roller mat, a skimmer and a 40W UV.

I run a CARX and keep my alk at 8, Ca at 460 and MG at 1300 (I’ll bring that up to 1400). The only thing I dose is Lugol’s at 1 drop a day, and the NO3 and PO4 discussed below.

I feed heavy, using a DIY frozen food. I have been having a hard time keeping detectable nutrients. I have been adding reef roids and aminos to the DIY food I make. I am going to make another batch of just fish, scallops, shrimp and clams and see if that makes any difference with the problems described below,

I have been dosing 35 ml of Sodium Nitrate and 120 ml of trisodium phosphate daily via a dos over a 24-hour period. My NO3 is about 20 and I still have hard time keeping my PO4 above 0 (via Hanna Phosphorus ULR). For reference 75ml Sodium Nitrate will raise NO3 in 150 Gallons by .08 ppm and 75 ml of trisodium phosphate will raise PO4 in 150 Gallons by .08. When I don’t dose and/or feed heavy my nutrients drop to 0/0 and my corals become pale.

I have a weird brown fuzzy algae/bacteria the covers my rocks, and has started to out compete the coralline algae on the starboard. This algae/bacteria/other can take on a hair algae like appearance in areas of less disturbance, such as in my overflow. However, it is super wispy and turns to mush if taken out of the aquarium.

I looked at it under a really cheap microscope, and at 100X I can see some dinos, mixed with filaments, which may be cyano, hard to get a good focus. I am waiting to borrow a better scope. For the last 8 days I have been adding 15 mls of H2O2 every 12 hours which has helped a little, maybe 20%.

So, here is my dilemma, do I keep on increasing the amount of PO4 I dose to get a better PO4 reading (.05-.1) and see if it helps? It seems like dosing the PO4 feeds this algae/bacteria which is consuming all of the PO4, and just gets more widespread. Then having no PO4 may have caused of the Dinos. The tank is consuming .1 PO4 per day. However, if I don’t dose (I tried), my corals lose color fast.

I wanted to show a few photos and see what people thought. The stuff will blow off the rocks, but some will stay, even if scrubbed. There are small bubbles that form near the end of the day, but nothing really looks like slime (other than a small amount in one low flow corner under a powerhead) or snot.

I have been dosing for a while, however, this has become much worse over the last month at the same time as it is much more difficult to get PO4 to register.

I took some of the pics with blues and others with whites only to see if it would help with ID, however they still are not the best since they are via a cell phone.

Thanks

Jason

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Bret Brinkmann

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Anything is better than dinos. Period. I had dinos and beat them over a year ago. They never came back. Try putting a sample in a cup of tank water and stir it until it breaks apart. If it reforms a clump in 15 minutes then it's dinos. Below is what I recommend for dino treatment which worked for me.

Run GAC for any toxins the dinos maybe producing. Keep dosing those inorganic nutrients. Dose more phosphates if you have to. Dose more so you don't have to over feed and introduce more organic sources of nutrients along with all the other stuff that comes with the food.

The concept of dosing nutrients is two part.

1) Increase nutrients in the water column to encourage dinos back into the water column as opposed to them attacking the algae and stealing their nutrients. When they do this it appears as a snooty clump. They also produce toxins in this phase, hence the carbon recommendation. Once in the water they become susceptible to UV also.

2) Encourage competition against the dinos by green algae. Dinos are not as good at taking up inorganic sources of nutrients so the other algae gets an advantage. It is thought that Fe is used up by the competition making an Fe deficient environment. This environment favors the competition further resulting in dinos dying off. This is also why water changes are not recommended because that would counter act the nutrient dosing in addition to adding more Fe.

You can also try reducing your light duration and intensity. This reduces the metabolism of photosynthetic life and decreases the demand for nutrients.
 
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JPK

JPK

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Anything is better than dinos. Period. I had dinos and beat them over a year ago. They never came back. Try putting a sample in a cup of tank water and stir it until it breaks apart. If it reforms a clump in 15 minutes then it's dinos. Below is what I recommend for dino treatment which worked for me.

Run GAC for any toxins the dinos maybe producing. Keep dosing those inorganic nutrients. Dose more phosphates if you have to. Dose more so you don't have to over feed and introduce more organic sources of nutrients along with all the other stuff that comes with the food.

The concept of dosing nutrients is two part.

1) Increase nutrients in the water column to encourage dinos back into the water column as opposed to them attacking the algae and stealing their nutrients. When they do this it appears as a snooty clump. They also produce toxins in this phase, hence the carbon recommendation. Once in the water they become susceptible to UV also.

2) Encourage competition against the dinos by green algae. Dinos are not as good at taking up inorganic sources of nutrients so the other algae gets an advantage. It is thought that Fe is used up by the competition making an Fe deficient environment. This environment favors the competition further resulting in dinos dying off. This is also why water changes are not recommended because that would counter act the nutrient dosing in addition to adding more Fe.

You can also try reducing your light duration and intensity. This reduces the metabolism of photosynthetic life and decreases the demand for nutrients.

Bret,
Thank you so much for the detailed response, you have some great insight!! I will try what you suggested for sure, much appreciated.
 
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JPK

JPK

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Here are some magnified shots, looks like dinos and other (this was scraping from the rear glass)

thoughts?
856E0114-EFD5-48C8-A2F8-3EAE6B74E679.jpeg


 

Pdash

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Looks like a mix of dinos and cyano, the majority of the bio mass looks like cyano (the long segmented strands).
 

Pdash

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Thanks Pdash,
That is what I was thinking too. I’ve been following the advice of @Bret Brinkmann, hopefully I can get a handle on this.
I had a similar issue with my tank, but I had undetectable nitrates. So really different than your situation even though it looked very similar under the microscope and in the tank. Fixed it by keeping phos above .03 and nitrates around 5 plus adding herbivorous.
 
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JPK

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Thanks, hopefully it will work out for me as well. I have 4 tangs and a foxface. I recently added some urchins and a ton of snails. They seem like they are making a dent but have a long way to go.
 

Mikefish87

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Anything is better than dinos. Period. I had dinos and beat them over a year ago. They never came back. Try putting a sample in a cup of tank water and stir it until it breaks apart. If it reforms a clump in 15 minutes then it's dinos. Below is what I recommend for dino treatment which worked for me.

Run GAC for any toxins the dinos maybe producing. Keep dosing those inorganic nutrients. Dose more phosphates if you have to. Dose more so you don't have to over feed and introduce more organic sources of nutrients along with all the other stuff that comes with the food.

The concept of dosing nutrients is two part.

1) Increase nutrients in the water column to encourage dinos back into the water column as opposed to them attacking the algae and stealing their nutrients. When they do this it appears as a snooty clump. They also produce toxins in this phase, hence the carbon recommendation. Once in the water they become susceptible to UV also.

2) Encourage competition against the dinos by green algae. Dinos are not as good at taking up inorganic sources of nutrients so the other algae gets an advantage. It is thought that Fe is used up by the competition making an Fe deficient environment. This environment favors the competition further resulting in dinos dying off. This is also why water changes are not recommended because that would counter act the nutrient dosing in addition to adding more Fe.

You can also try reducing your light duration and intensity. This reduces the metabolism of photosynthetic life and decreases the demand for nutrients.
So would uou suggest using inorganic nutrients as red seas reef energy A,B
 

Dan_P

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Looks like a mix of dinos and cyano, the majority of the bio mass looks like cyano (the long segmented strands).

The filament does not look like a cyanobacteria. The ratio of the cell’s length to width is too large. If the filament has colored ”particles” in each cell, its an algae, not a hair algae though, otherwise it is a very large filamentous bacteria a possible indication of excess organic matter.

You should try to sample the gelatinous matter that is covering the bottom and rocks. I think that will present you some useful information.
 

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